Panasonic’s new cameras

[Markuswelder]

I'm curious as to what posters mean, when they say "improve autofocus" How, and in what situations? To compete in synthetic tests with other brands, or to be competent in real life shooting situations/scenarios? Hell, even my humble first gen S5 works plenty good enough 99.9% of the time, in stills photography. Face detection, AFC on moving subjects, even at high speed, animal detection, it all just seems to work for me. So what actually are the required improvements?

 

[CH_CH]

I'm curious as to what posters mean, when they say "improve autofocus" How, and in what situations? To compete in synthetic tests with other brands, or to be competent in real life shooting situations/scenarios? Hell, even my humble first gen S5 works plenty good enough 99.9% of the time, in stills photography. Face detection, AFC on moving subjects, even at high speed, animal detection, it all just seems to work for me. So what actually are the required improvements?

At this point, the improvements are almost all related to:
1- Subject recognition and selection (mostly make it easy to select one among many, and make it stick once selected even if obstructed etc)
2- Tracking (mildly related to recognition. If I use tracking and click on it, it must recognize the whatever object and follow it). As of now the main weak point of Lumix AF with modern implementation.
I think Lumix does (1) already really well, and has been doing for quite some time. "the box is on the face, but i does not focus on it" was the main complaint about DfD for photos.
For me, I just want subject recognition at 120p and be done. But probably it will not happen in the current camera generation...

 

[Quentinquirelino]

At this point, the improvements are almost all related to:
1- Subject recognition and selection (mostly make it easy to select one among many, and make it stick once selected even if obstructed etc)
2- Tracking (mildly related to recognition. If I use tracking and click on it, it must recognize the whatever object and follow it). As of now the main weak point of Lumix AF with modern implementation.
I think Lumix does (1) already really well, and has been doing for quite some time. "the box is on the face, but i does not focus on it" was the main complaint about DfD for photos.
For me, I just want subject recognition at 120p and be done. But probably it will not happen in the current camera generation...

I completely agree and I think the biggest reason for the gap in (2), compared to the competition, are the slow sensors Panasonic is using currently in L-Mount cameras. That's a handy cap what I hope the can overcome with the next body, what probably will be the S1 or/and S1H successor. The S1R successor is obviously even further delayed, but I wouldn't expect a camera for fast moving subjects of it anyhow.

 

[Prosecutor]

I'm curious as to what posters mean, when they say "improve autofocus" How, and in what situations? To compete in synthetic tests with other brands, or to be competent in real life shooting situations/scenarios? Hell, even my humble first gen S5 works plenty good enough 99.9% of the time, in stills photography. Face detection, AFC on moving subjects, even at high speed, animal detection, it all just seems to work for me. So what actually are the required improvements?

I require an AF that is reliable when focussing on oncoming birds, kids and dogs. Actually, even the S5II doesn´t manage these situations well.
And I can count to three until my S5II with the Sigma 150-600 locks on a bird in the sky. That is ridiculous.
Finally I don´t like my S5II focussing on the far away eye of a person instead on the nearer one.
These are real life situations!

 

[Jenny]

I honestly would love to see a few compact Photography focused cameras from Panasonic. I would be so excited to buy a GM5 successor or a high-resolution-S9.

 

[Markuswelder]

I require an AF that is reliable when focussing on oncoming birds, kids and dogs. Actually, even the S5II doesn´t manage these situations well.
And I can count to three until my S5II with the Sigma 150-600 locks on a bird in the sky. That is ridiculous.
Finally I don´t like my S5II focussing on the far away eye of a person instead on the nearer one.
These are real life situations!

Then you would have been better off buying a sports/action oriented camera for sure. An S5I or II is definitely not marketed or sold as such. If you needed a camera to do that, you should have bought the right tool for the job. Panasonic copped a lot of criticism regarding their AF for video, they responded, but I don't see any of the S series being targeted at action shooting. And I don't see that group being catered for in the future either. Panasonic knows where they want to focus their efforts (pun intended) I think the consumers should be able to understand that

 

[dirk]

Be cautious what you wish for and how it will impact your photography.

If we end up with an AF that decides on which eye to put the focus point, or which makes 100% sharp sport photos every single time, I wonder what we shall do then as a photographer at all in the future?

Obviously this is the trend in photography. But as a consequence, we will only hold a black box in a direction and the camera does the rest. Lile a Smartphone. Because human beeings are lazy, noone will try to make his photos differently. All images will look the same.

No matter how good an AF is, I want to control it and keep the creative decision in my hand. This is part of my joy to take pictures. It is not just the result, it is also the process to achieve a good image. The feeling while I take the picture.

If everything will be perfect with a simple push of a button, it might be more fun to start painting...

 

[Markuswelder]

If everything will be perfect with a simple push of a button, it might be more fun to start painting...

Precisely. Throw away your camera, sit down in front of your keyboard, type a few words into your AI program, done. Don't have to worry about traveling anywhere, don't have to worry about carrying around heavy, expensive gear, don't have to worry about the weather, just sit on your big fat bum in front of your computer, and let it do everything for you, perfectly.

 

[Markuswelder]

And I don't see that group being catered for in the future either.

I probably should expand on that a little. It's not just AF, but a whole system if you're trying to crack the sports/wildlife market. You then need to create a whole new line of bodies, and lenses, to try and capture a fraction of a percentage of the welded on Canon, Nikon and Sony users. Just look how long it's taken Sony to break into that market, and that was in a thriving ,buoyant market place. I think it would be suicidal for Panasonic to attempt it in this day and age. They have their niche in hybrid cameras, focus on that.

 

[dirk]

I was today in one of the camera stores of "big camera" in Tokyo close to Ginza station. They have a huge choice of all brands there. You can grab and test every model.

Olympus, Panasonic, Nikon, Canon, Sony and even Pentax etc.

So, I took all the different models in my hand to see which one feels good in my hands. It turned out that the Lumix S5ii and the old Olympus EM1 Mkiii are the most comfortable bodies in my hand. The new Nikon Z6iii and all others were very uncomfortable for my hands.

I think this is an often overseen buying decision factor. Most users look on the technical data on the spec sheets and in youtube reviews, buy a camera and sell it 6 months later, because it is a nightmare to carry it around.

I had the original Nikon Z6 (mki) and liked the body. But what Nikon made now with the Nikon Z6 mkiii, the Z8 and Z9 is ridicilous. Bigger is not better. Similar with other brands. Unfortunately the Lumix G9 mkii disappointed me too.

Fuji X system was the only one, which offered bodies in the right sizes. No wonder that they increased their market share so strongly over the last couple of years.

I hope that Panasonic made the right decision for the not yet known L-Mount and MFT bodies.

It seems that the whole industry (incl. OM System with its OM1) is making each body only bigger, thicker and less comfortable to hold in the hand for more than 10 minutes.

I would rather buy then a second hand model with inferior AF or image quality as long as it is smaller, lighter and better to hold for a few hours thanks to better shaped grips and bodies.

With these new "bricks", you will never attract a smartphone user for an MFT or full frame system. Fullframe which feels like Medium Format and MFT which feels like fullframe. What are they thinking?

 

[Oíche]

And I can count to three until my S5II with the Sigma 150-600 locks on a bird in the sky.

I believe the 150-600 itself does not have fast AF, apparently their 60-600 is faster with newer HLA AF motors and a revised design.

Assuming you have firmware 3.0, 3 sec does seem excessive, I haven't counted as such myself birding with the Lumix 70-300.

No doubt there is room for improvement also, how much faster is 150-600 on Nikon Z6ii or similar.

 

[Oíche]

Lumix S9 mkii disappointed me too.

? What camera do you mean?

 

[PL-Shooter]

I was today in one of the camera stores of "big camera" in Tokyo close to Ginza station. They have a huge choice of all brands there. You can grab and test every model.

Olympus, Panasonic, Nikon, Canon, Sony and even Pentax etc.

So, I took all the different models in my hand to see which one feels good in my hands. It turned out that the Lumix S5ii and the old Olympus EM1 Mkiii are the most comfortable bodies in my hand. The new Nikon Z6iii and all others were very uncomfortable for my hands.

I think this is an often overseen buying decision factor. Most users look on the technical data on the spec sheets and in youtube reviews, buy a camera and sell it 6 months later, because it is a nightmare to carry it around.

I had the original Nikon Z6 (mki) and liked the body. But what Nikon made now with the Nikon Z6 mkiii, the Z8 and Z9 is ridicilous. Bigger is not better. Similar with other brands. Unfortunately the Lumix G9 mkii disappointed me too.

Fuji X system was the only one, which offered bodies in the right sizes. No wonder that they increased their market share so strongly over the last couple of years.

I hope that Panasonic made the right decision for the not yet known L-Mount and MFT bodies.

It seems that the whole industry (incl. OM System with its OM1) is making each body only bigger, thicker and less comfortable to hold in the hand for more than 10 minutes.

I would rather buy then a second hand model with inferior AF or image quality as long as it is smaller, lighter and better to hold for a few hours thanks to better shaped grips and bodies.

With these new "bricks", you will never attract a smartphone user for an MFT or full frame system. Fullframe which feels like Medium Format and MFT which feels like fullframe. What are they thinking?

You liked the S5 II but didn't like the G9 II ? .......

 

[CharlesH]

You liked the S5 II but didn't like the G9 II ? .......

I have both cameras and they feel exactly the same to me.

 

[xaviergut]

No matter how good an AF is, I want to control it and keep the creative decision in my hand.

Yes, we can always use manual focus for photography or for video

The strong point of Panasonic Lumix has always been video. And the S5 iix is the best mid-range video camera under €3,000 compared to Sony, Canon or Nikon. It has video features that users of other brands don't even know what it means. I recently asked on a Nikon forum about shutter angle and no one had any idea what that is or what it is for.

What I want to say is that Lumix should take advantage of its video features over other brands and not try to compete on its territory. Especially since the current global trend is towards video creation. Not only because of the presence of YouTube, Instagram video or even Tiktok. And that was the reason why Lumix made the S9. Nowadays even the Canon and Nikon (and Pentax) Dslr photographers are starting to do video. Not to mention the wedding photographers. Now they also have to deliver a wedding video along with the photo album. Also in corporate and advertising jobs, everyone wants a corporate video.


This is the reason I think (IMHO) Lumix will focus first in the video centric flagship, because for video the AF is more than enough and on par with Sony. And in many ways it is ahead of other brands for video creation.

 

[inspiredtimothy]

I was today in one of the camera stores of "big camera" in Tokyo close to Ginza station. They have a huge choice of all brands there. You can grab and test every model.

Olympus, Panasonic, Nikon, Canon, Sony and even Pentax etc.

So, I took all the different models in my hand to see which one feels good in my hands. It turned out that the Lumix S5ii and the old Olympus EM1 Mkiii are the most comfortable bodies in my hand. The new Nikon Z6iii and all others were very uncomfortable for my hands.

I think this is an often overseen buying decision factor. Most users look on the technical data on the spec sheets and in youtube reviews, buy a camera and sell it 6 months later, because it is a nightmare to carry it around.

I had the original Nikon Z6 (mki) and liked the body. But what Nikon made now with the Nikon Z6 mkiii, the Z8 and Z9 is ridicilous. Bigger is not better. Similar with other brands. Unfortunately the Lumix G9 mkii disappointed me too.

Fuji X system was the only one, which offered bodies in the right sizes. No wonder that they increased their market share so strongly over the last couple of years.

I hope that Panasonic made the right decision for the not yet known L-Mount and MFT bodies.

It seems that the whole industry (incl. OM System with its OM1) is making each body only bigger, thicker and less comfortable to hold in the hand for more than 10 minutes.

I would rather buy then a second hand model with inferior AF or image quality as long as it is smaller, lighter and better to hold for a few hours thanks to better shaped grips and bodies.

With these new "bricks", you will never attract a smartphone user for an MFT or full frame system. Fullframe which feels like Medium Format and MFT which feels like fullframe. What are they thinking?

The reason I went with Lumix were the quality of life features and ergonomics, as you point out here (and also price to performance ratio).

But that doesn't mean that I am not interested in shooting fast moving subjects like my kid or maybe aspiring to shoot wildlife some day, contrary to what others here have suggested.

Panasonic can focus on good AF without leaving out specific genres of photography. Good training data for their machine learning algorithms will help regardless of if we are shooting video or photo. Sure Lumix doesn't offer anything over 300mm for full frame at the moment, but bird photography and maybe even sports are clearly prioritized on m43, which shares the same data set. It doesn't seem to me like we would have to just throw up our hands and say "well, shouldn't buy a Lumix if you want fast AF".

 

[Markuswelder]

It doesn't seem to me like we would have to just throw up our hands and say "well, shouldn't buy a Lumix if you want fast AF".

That's my point though. Panasonic DOES have fast AF. They've always had fast AF. What they don't have, is first party fast super tele lenses to go with that. Because the market for them, would be exceedingly small. Like in the fractions of a percentage point, and not looking like ever getting bigger. So why would they throw money away, when there's already plenty of product out there?
They're far better off continuing to compete where they have the knowledge and experience. That being Hybrid camera's. Yeah, a few people are going to be disappointed with that decision, but you can't please all the people all the time

 

[Markuswelder]

You liked the S5 II but didn't like the G9 II ? .......

I like my G9, love it actually, love my S5, but the only interest I have in the G9 II, is the sensor. For the size, weight and cost, I'm better off carrying around and using my S5 kit.

 

[PL-Shooter]

Agree! While the G9 II has more "bells & whistles", I sold mine and kept my G9.
Using my S5 more and more and loving it!

 

[osogris]

The reason I went with Lumix were the quality of life features and ergonomics, as you point out here (and also price to performance ratio).

But that doesn't mean that I am not interested in shooting fast moving subjects like my kid or maybe aspiring to shoot wildlife some day, contrary to what others here have suggested.

Panasonic can focus on good AF without leaving out specific genres of photography. Good training data for their machine learning algorithms will help regardless of if we are shooting video or photo. Sure Lumix doesn't offer anything over 300mm for full frame at the moment, but bird photography and maybe even sports are clearly prioritized on m43, which shares the same data set. It doesn't seem to me like we would have to just throw up our hands and say "well, shouldn't buy a Lumix if you want fast AF".

Probably the closest to a super-telephoto prime currently available for L mount would be the Sigma 500mm f5.6. Not quite the same as a 400mm f2.8 or a 600mm f4.0, but at least it is long, faster than f6.3, and can take a tele-converter (on L mount). Maybe if a few more of those sell Sigma will be encouraged to design more long primes.