Panasonic’s new cameras

[pdk42]

So we’ve had the S9 and the GH7 so far in 2024. It seems that there are strong rumours of a smaller MFT camera too (GX9 replacement?) coming later this year. I wonder where this leaves an S1 replacement? I seem to remember people saying that we’ll get three new cameras this year from Panasonic (based on WiFi device registrations) so if the small MFT camera rumour is true, that obviously means no S1.

My lingering worry is that Panasonic will leave the high Mp, stills market to Leica.

 

[dirk]

My lingering worry is that Panasonic will leave the high Mp, stills market to Leica.

I do not think so. But it is obvious that Panasonic has to wait for a specific period of time before they are allowed to release a Lumix version of that camera.

I am sure there will be an S1Rii one day. But if you look at the current S1R, there is not that much you can improve on it.

The AF for sure, but does the target group appreciate that so much, that they would upgrade?

46MP vs 60MP is not really a huge step and has also its downsides.

As far as I can see it, for the rest the S1R is a prefect camera. Just too big for me.

There are also other rumors about a S1H. Like a GH7 for L-Mount.

The rumor sites do not know everything and I am pretty sure that the companies only leak stuff, what they want to have in public. This is also marketing to keep discussions about a brand on the internet alive

Panasonic did not release much during the Pandemic. Maybe they still have a lot in the pipeline which should have been introduced earlier during Corona or right after Corona?

 

[Nevyn72]

I think there will be more than 3 camera's this year. Actually Panasonic looks to be on the roll.

There where 3 camera's registered in China, true, but:

1). They can register more camera in the coming months
2). Do all camera's have to go to China?
I know China's market is huge for Panasonic, but i think more for the cheaper camera's than the more high end.

If the are going to ship a high res camera? I don't have a cristal ball (fortunately), but I do expect a S2(H) this year. If Arri wold allow that camera also to use their Arri-log, than Lumix is fully back in the Cinema game.

Mmmmm Nikon went together with RED
Perhaps Panasonic with Arri?

Shared it already in another thread but this worth sharing again:

 

[CH_CH]

Some of the leading influencers commented what they "want" in an S1ii, so it is not yet in their hands (they would have NDA about it).
But I think in summer it will come out.
I really really hope it is the own sensor with the DR boost and all the features of GH7, but in FF.
If they use the S1 body, maybe internal ND filters.
Time will tell.

 

[Quentinquirelino]

So we’ve had the S9 and the GH7 so far in 2024. It seems that there are strong rumours of a smaller MFT camera too (GX9 replacement?) coming later this year. I wonder where this leaves an S1 replacement? I seem to remember people saying that we’ll get three new cameras this year from Panasonic (based on WiFi device registrations) so if the small MFT camera rumour is true, that obviously means no S1.

My lingering worry is that Panasonic will leave the high Mp, stills market to Leica.

Non of those registration would fit a compact MFT camera. All are for more high-end cameras. And it's pretty safe we will get a 61 MPix camera from Panasonic soon, with the exact same sensor Leica uses in the SL3.

However I much more looking forward to a S1 replacement with faster sensor.

 

[AlanC]

Where does this idea that Leica are controlling what other members of the L-Mount alliance can do come from?

When Dave Etchells of Imaging Resource interviewed Sigma CEO Kazuto Yamaki in 2022 he said the following:

In the L-Mount Alliance, the three companies are basically independent in terms of product development and sales, although we may work together jointly on marketing. The L-Mount Alliance means that [we’re] using the same platform, the same L-Mount platform and developing the L-Mount system so the users can have the benefit. But in terms of product development, as I said, each company is independent.

https://www.imaging-resource.com/ne...ew-2022-i-series-lenses-foveon-update-16-28mm

 

[pdk42]

Where does this idea that Leica are controlling what other members of the L-Mount alliance can do come from?

When Dave Etchells of Imaging Resource interviewed Sigma CEO Kazuto Yamaki in 2022 he said the following:



https://www.imaging-resource.com/ne...ew-2022-i-series-lenses-foveon-update-16-28mm

Yes, but since then we’ve had the L2 alliance which is just Panasonic and Leica.

 

[Nomad Nate]

Maybe there's some sort of embargo on their ability to buy or develop stacked sensor technology in exchange for their getting pdaf. Seems like a stacked sensor is pretty much necessary for the next level of s1h. 4k 120, 60 uncropped is going to be a non-negotiable point for pretty much anyone looking at that budget of camera.

 

[AlanC]

Yes, but since then we’ve had the L2 alliance which is just Panasonic and Leica.

From another Dave Etchells interview, this time with Panasonic, on the subject of the L2 alliance:

We will invest together on key devices, introduce technology created by joint development of products [for both companies]

With cameras, the evolution of technology is directly linked to customer value, so it is always necessary to invest in the latest key devices. We believe that investing in key devices jointly with Leica will also lead to more efficient investment on both sides.

https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2022/09/08/panasonic-japan-july-2022-interview

Maybe they do have an agreement that will see Panasonic delay the introduction of a 60MP camera, but their statements make it sound more like they'll use that sensor in products of their own sooner or later.

 

[Oíche]

46MP vs 60MP is not really a huge step and has also its downsides.

I agree, I don't see the point in a marginal gain. If you're a wide/normal focal length landscaper who actually does need to print bigger why not just go for a medium format 100MP+ Fuji/Hasselblad.

Then we now have the upscaling software if you do get a world beating wall hangar and want a big print. I imagine the specialist companies themselves can do this and TBH who does large prints on a regular basis. I last did this 10 years ago paying £27 for 30x20" prints from a top UK printer from a Pentax 16MP APSC camera and the prints were outstanding, the people who bought them looked gob-smacked "OMG look at the detail" as they seen the images before ordering.

Hence why I was happy going from a Pentax 24MP APSC to 24MP S5ii which is no marginal gain, it's night and day difference in tech. I am certainly on no megapixel hunt

 

[dirk]

Sensor technology matured since 4-5 years. You do not gain really something significant with newer sensors. You might be able to detect difference on test charts with 1600x magnification, but not in real life photos.

Even the gap in AF on Lumix cameras shrinked with the introduction of PDAF to meaningless differences, except maybe for extreme situations in sport.

If an S1Rii will cone out, I will rather look for S1R bargains.

 

[Oíche]

Mmmmm Nikon went together with RED
Perhaps Panasonic with Arri?

Whilst all this great tech is now affordable at consumer levels I think it is mostly wasted as you need the artistic creativity to justify it all.

When you consider the amazing videography that came out on the 80's and 90's I now think this is missing. I think the internet and social media has perhaps destoyed individual thought and creativity having too much influence and parroting of thought or behaviour.

Maybe I'm out of touch but the Peter Gabriel, Talking Heads, Thriller, Prodigy etc. music videos for a tiny example were produced by real artistic talent. Many from art school but not necessarily so, the brilliant 'Every breath you take' by Police was done by former 10CC members, again artists in their own right but you'll maybe find art school stuff historically.

It's probably the fact that such high quality gear is now available now available means a larger majority of users who simply do not have the skikls to take advantage of it. All this slower read-out talk nonsense taking headlines... When in video do you really pan so fast and that viewers would even care about it? Sure there are niche users wanting global shutters for high speed photography and in 10 years this could be in entry level.

It's some of the YouShillers demostrating problems which don't really matter to most people. Same with the slo-mo which is the basis of Camera Conspiracies intro and satirical 'all I want is the perfect camera' song.

Many times it is better though, being asked by a newcomer if they should buy an S5ii versus an S5 it is a no-brainer but that is a 4-5 year difference with distinct tech.

 

[Nevyn72]

Whilst all this great tech is now affordable at consumer levels I think it is mostly wasted as you need the artistic creativity to justify it all.

I agree mostly with you. The thing what excites me though is that WHEN Lumix is used by a lot more people, more money goes to the production of Lumix stuff.
Comparisons with ARRI in the social media world WILL make better sales for Lumix.

I think the S5ii(X) is already the best camera people can buy for that price, but it is not well enough known yet.

Everything what can help with getting to know that Lumix has the best system for most use cases, yes please!

 

[pdk42]

I agree, I don't see the point in a marginal gain. If you're a wide/normal focal length landscaper who actually does need to print bigger why not just go for a medium format 100MP+ Fuji/Hasselblad.

Then we now have the upscaling software if you do get a world beating wall hangar and want a big print. I imagine the specialist companies themselves can do this and TBH who does large prints on a regular basis. I last did this 10 years ago paying £27 for 30x20" prints from a top UK printer from a Pentax 16MP APSC camera and the prints were outstanding, the people who bought them looked gob-smacked "OMG look at the detail" as they seen the images before ordering.

Hence why I was happy going from a Pentax 24MP APSC to 24MP S5ii which is no marginal gain, it's night and day difference in tech. I am certainly on no megapixel hunt

Totally agree.

For most people, 47Mp is plenty. In fact, 24Mp will likely do just fine too. Whilst in theory a 300dpi print from 24Mp maxes out at a print size of about 38cm x 50cm, that overstates the need for pixels in a practical sense. Firstly, for large prints, you can drop under 300dpi since the viewing distance will be greater. On that basis, you can probably print a 24Mp image up to about 50cm x 70cm and it'll still look spectacular. Secondly, you can use software to upscale your image before sending to the printer. This in principle may lose fine detail, but in my experience I've never noticed it (and I've printed some 1.2m wide prints from 20Mp Olympus cameras that look fantastic).

But of course, printing is a minority sport nowadays. Most images get shown on computer screens and even a 4K monitor only needs about 8Mp.

However, more Mp does bring some other advantages - slightly better colour fidelity, more scope for cropping, and to some degree, an element of "future proofing". But if I had to live with 24Mp, I wouldn't lose a lot sleep over it. It's nice to have the extra Mp though and I appreciate it every time I press the "100%" zoom button in LR!

Where the S1R really excels though (as indeed does the basic S1), is its handling and controls. I love the fantastic EVF, the dual folding rear screen, the surfeit of buttons, the silky-smooth and subdued sound of the shutter (way nicer sound than on the S5/S5ii), and the premium build. I'm less happy with the weight of the thing and the fact that they've now given up with firmware updates so it's now a long way behind the S5ii in terms of features.

So for me, what I'm looking for in a potential S1R mk ii is this:

- Smaller and lighter body
- 47Mp or better (61Mp would be great)
- Retain the high res EVF and dual folding rear screen
- Retain the premium build
- Retain the excellent ergonomics and control abundance and customisation
- Up to date firmware features (I'd love a long-exposure implementation like Olympus's "Live Time")

But I think it's quite possible that I'll be disappointed. The 61Mp sensor in the Leica SL3 is poorly suited to video (slow readout) and I just can't see Panasonic releasing a high-end camera that doesn't double up as a hybrid video device. With the GH7 release, it seems to me that the market is crying out for an S1H mk ii rather than an S1R mk ii; in other words, an FF version of the GH7. If they want it to do 8K with such a camera, then they'll need at least 33Mp and they'll need a new, fast readout sensor to meet the needs of videographers. Sony make the sensor for the Nikon Z9, and that's got 45Mp and very high readout speeds (about 1/280s). It's possible that Panasonic could commission Sony to build something for them that's similar. Who knows. But either way, the S1H must be the most likely camera design for winning market share, rather than a high Mp stills-mostly camera.

So it would not surprise me at all if Panasonic leave high Mp, predominantly-stills market to Leica. I doubt the S1R was a huge seller so why make a mark ii? Of course, an S1H mk ii would probably take great stills shots too - but it'll mean living with a flip-out screen, other ergonomics focused on video shooting, and a cooling fan (bigger body needed). I doubt that would interest me too much.

Anyhow - all speculation I know! Time will tell if I'm right or completely off track.

 

[dirk]

I think the S5ii(X) is already the best camera people can buy for that price, but it is not well enough known yet.

Everything what can help with getting to know that Lumix has the best system for most use cases, yes please

Everyone can help to make Lumix more well-known easily:

Just invite more people to our L-Mount an MFT community forums. Every week, every month, every year no matter where you are.

It is up to us to spread the news and convince others. Panasonic can not do this alone. Real users are always more convincing than marketing events or YouTube videos.

We have LMount and MFT forums in English and in German and if there is enough demand, I can open more in other languages too.

Just spread the news. Simple as that. If people learn from other members here what they can do with Lumix cameras, they are easily convinced and like a snowball effect, they bring even more other people in.

"Just do it", to say it in Nike words

 

[dirk]

I doubt the S1R was a huge seller so why make a mark ii?

I think it would have sold a lot better with a smaller body and a smaller price tag.

If you are new with fullframe, almost no lenses at that time and inferior AF, bigger and heavier body, you can not price a S1R more expensive than a Nikon Z7.

In 2024 with the LMount lens range of today, a S1Rii in a S5ii body, 47MP, PDAF, 5,7 MP EVF etc. and a price below 3.000€ would sell very well nowadays.

 

[AlanC]

I doubt the S1R was a huge seller so why make a mark ii? Of course, an S1H mk ii would probably take great stills shots too - but it'll mean living with a flip-out screen, other ergonomics focused on video shooting, and a cooling fan (bigger body needed). I doubt that would interest me too much.

They did surprise everyone with the photography oriented G9ii which uses a variant of the S5ii body without the fan.

Likewise with the 25MP M43 sensor: they've said it's "not made by the company everyone always assumes we use" so another custom sensor is certainly a possibility.

And, as Dirk has said, the S1R was at a real disadvantage when it was launched: the largest, heaviest, most expensive camera in its class with the most limited range of lenses.

I could see Panasonic doing a pair of S1ii cameras: one a true hybrid, the other with enhanced video capabilities, just as they've done with the S5ii / S5iix and G9ii / GH7.

 

[Quentinquirelino]

Sensor technology matured since 4-5 years. You do not gain really something significant with newer sensors. You might be able to detect difference on test charts with 1600x magnification, but not in real life photos.

...

Yes and no. There was about nothing in improving image quality. But there was a big improvement in terms of read out speed.

...
... If they want it to do 8K with such a camera, then they'll need at least 33Mp and they'll need a new, fast readout sensor to meet the needs of videographers. ...

...

No, you need at least 40 Mpix for UHD8k and 45 Mpix for real 8k. However, I'm pretty sure Panasonic will bring a high end body with the 61 MPix Sensor and I'm almost certain it will be there next body.

 

[pdk42]

I could see Panasonic doing a pair of S1ii cameras: one a true hybrid, the other with enhanced video capabilities, just as they've done with the S5ii / S5iix and G9ii / GH7.

Yes, I have the same view. Perhaps an S2/S2x pair. Both with an 8k compatible sensor, perhaps the same tech/manufacturer as in the G9ii/GH6/GH7.

 

[pdk42]

Yes and no. There was about nothing in improving image quality. But there was a big improvement in terms of read out speed.



No, you need at least 40 Mpix for UHD8k and 45 Mpix for real 8k. However, I'm pretty sure Panasonic will bring a high end body with the 61 MPix Sensor and I'm almost certain it will be there next body.

Is the read-out speed of that sensor going to satisfy the video specialists though?