Panasonic’s new cameras

[dirk]

I am not sure about that..It is very expensive to have different sensors in the product line up. If you have a big market share, this is not a problem. This is why Nikon and Sony can afford this.

But the LMount and MFT sales volume is in my view not big enough. I see Panasonic more in line with Fuji. Although Fuji has a much bigger market share, the only offer 2 different sensors in all their camera models. You buy in big quantities at the manufacturer to get a low price, which is necessary to be able to offer competitive body prices.

Because of that quantity you need to use the same sensor in different cameras. In MFT this works obviously well with the new 25MP MFT sensor for 3 different bodies (G9ii, GH7, GX10). Economies of scale.

This is why I think Panasonic will offer for LMount only 24MP and 45MP or 60 MP cameras.

 

[CharlesH]

Is the read-out speed of that sensor going to satisfy the video specialists though?

I would say yes and no. Both the Leica Q3 and the Sony A7RV have this 61 MP sensor, and both can do 8K video. If the 4K were properly down sampled from 8K this could be a good thing with low noise and good color; but it would take quite a bit of processing power, maybe more than in current Panasonic processors. And with the low sensor readout speed any higher frame rate capability could be limited.

In my case I'd like to replace my Sony A1 with a Panasonic high resolution camera, but the performance needs to be comparable. If they used the chip from the Nikon Z8, and had specs similar to the Z8, that would be ideal.

 

[Quentinquirelino]

Is the read-out speed of that sensor going to satisfy the video specialists though?

Yes of course. A faster read out is necessary for higher frame rates and less rolling shutter. With the current 24 Mpix sensor of the S5II, cropped 4k 60fps is everything you can get. The GH7 can do 4k 120fps with full sensor read out. I think full frame 60 fps is more important than 8k.

Then, if we talk about the 61 mpix sensor. You can get 8k with it. But it's even slower than the 24 Mpix Sensor. It's no sensor for a video orientated cameras. But still, it will be in one of Panasonic's upcoming cameras. My guess would be the next one. And still, Panasonic will probably put every video feature in that camera that they can do with the sensor and with there pricing target. However it will be a photography orientated camera and no S1H successor.

 

[Nevyn72]

Yes of course. A faster read out is necessary for higher frame rates and less rolling shutter. With the current 24 Mpix sensor of the S5II, cropped 4k 60fps is everything you can get. The GH7 can do 4k 120fps with full sensor read out. I think full frame 60 fps is more important than 8k.

Then, if we talk about the 61 mpix sensor. You can get 8k with it. But it's even slower than the 24 Mpix Sensor. It's no sensor for a video orientated cameras. But still, it will be in one of Panasonic's upcoming cameras. My guess would be the next one. And still, Panasonic will probably put every video feature in that camera that they can do with the sensor and with there pricing target. However it will be a photography orientated camera and no S1H successor.

Rolling Shutter doesn't need to be a problem, it depends where the camera is used for...

But thats a problem for Panasonic. Lately there camera's are 'all-in-one' full hybrids...

I think a buyer expect the camera to have low rolling shutter, although it is not such a big deal as reviewers often make it.

Only in very special situations you NEED low rolling shutter.... But I would expect it for a hybrid camera from Panasonic with good video capabilities for the price point a S2iiX/S2/S2H would sell for.

 

[Quentinquirelino]

Rolling Shutter doesn't need to be a problem, it depends where the camera is used for...

...

You are right. I think the higher frame rates are more important. At least full sensor 4k 60fps would be a minimum feature of a future S1H successor. But that's not possible with the current 24 Mpix Sensor, used in the S5IIX, neither is it possible with the 61 MPix Sensor, used in the SL3.

 

[CharlesH]

You are right. I think the higher frame rates are more important. At least full sensor 4k 60fps would be a minimum feature of a future S1H successor. But that's not possible with the current 24 Mpix Sensor, used in the S5IIX, neither is it possible with the 61 MPix Sensor, used in the SL3.

Sure, but look at the Nikon Z8 (or Z9). The sensor in those cameras could easily be a S1H successor, with all the features of the GH7. I think this is a Sony sensor and on the same shopping list as the 61 MP sensor. It is a stacked CMOS sensor with a higher readout speed.

And yes, my A1 has a stacked CMOS sensor, this makes a big speed difference with higher resolution cameras.

 

[AlanC]

Sure, but look at the Nikon Z8 (or Z9). The sensor in those cameras could easily be a S1H successor, with all the features of the GH7. I think this is a Sony sensor and on the same shopping list as the 61 MP sensor. It is a stacked CMOS sensor with a higher readout speed.

Sony have a 45MP non-stacked sensor, the IMX366, that's generally available like the 61MP IMX455, but the 47MP stacked sensor in the Z8 and Z9 seems to be specific to Nikon rather like the 50MP stacked sensor in the A1 is specific to Sony.

https://www.sony-semicon.com/en/products/is/camera/index.html

The IMX455 would make sense in some ways since Leica already use it in the Q3, M11 and SL3 and the L2 alliance is all about sharing technologies between the companies, but it doesn't seem like a particularly good choice for a high end hybrid camera, far less one that places the emphasis on video. That leaves the IMX366 or a custom design.

 

[xaviergut]

In this video from Camera Zone, which was published 11 days ago, they talk about a new Lumix cinema camera: the S1X. From minute 4 to minute 8, more or less.

I copy some of the specs: 9mpx backside illuminated live MOS sensor, no low pass filter, 20fps mechanical shutter, 8,5k resolution, 8,2k at 60 fps, super 35 format o with 5,1k resolution and 72fps, 5,6k / 17:9 or 5,4k / 2.4:1 at 90fps, native ISO 50, 225, 1000, 17 stops of dinamic range.

From minute 12 (+/-) they talk about the future Lumix S1Hii, with 50mpx sensor resolution, 8k Uhd UP to 60 fps, 4k 120fps, 6k and 8k Apple pro res raw.



They talk about the GH7 in the beginning and about a G100 mark ii too. And in the end they mention the organic sensor developed by Panasonic.

I don"t know, the video seems a bit confusing to me...

 

[pdk42]

In this video from Camera Zone, which was published 11 days ago, they talk about a new Lumix cinema camera: the S1X. From minute 4 to minute 8, more or less.

I copy some of the specs: 9mpx backside illuminated live MOS sensor, no low pass filter, 20fps mechanical shutter, 8,5k resolution, 8,2k at 60 fps, super 35 format o with 5,1k resolution and 72fps, 5,6k / 17:9 or 5,4k / 2.4:1 at 90fps, native ISO 50, 225, 1000, 17 stops of dinamic range.

From minute 12 (+/-) they talk about the future Lumix S1Hii, with 50mpx sensor resolution, 8k Uhd UP to 60 fps, 4k 120fps, 6k and 8k Apple pro res raw.



They talk about the GH7 in the beginning and about a G100 mark ii too. And in the end they mention the organic sensor developed by Panasonic.

I don"t know, the video seems a bit confusing to me...

How could you get 8k from a 9 Mp sensor?

 

[CharlesH]

How could you get 8k from a 9 Mp sensor?

It also has 17 stops of dynamic range.

 

[Quentinquirelino]

How could you get 8k from a 9 Mp sensor?

If it's 8.5k it would add up to about 49 Mpix. But I think the specifications are all made up. There won't be video centred S1iix and S1Hii at the same time, with different but very similar specifications. Doesn't make sense to me.

Sony have a 45MP non-stacked sensor, the IMX366, that's generally available like the 61MP IMX455, but the 47MP stacked sensor in the Z8 and Z9 seems to be specific to Nikon rather like the 50MP stacked sensor in the A1 is specific to Sony.

https://www.sony-semicon.com/en/products/is/camera/index.html

The IMX455 would make sense in some ways since Leica already use it in the Q3, M11 and SL3 and the L2 alliance is all about sharing technologies between the companies, but it doesn't seem like a particularly good choice for a high end hybrid camera, far less one that places the emphasis on video. That leaves the IMX366 or a custom design.

That IMX366 would be more likely for a dedicated video camera. But as I told earlier, I think Panasonic will use the IMX455 anyhow in a S1R replacement.

Besides the Sony sensors, they also could use a complete new sensor from a different manufacturer, like they did in the GH6, G9II and GH7. I also still think a organic sensor is a possibility for a S1 and S1H successor. According to Panasonic, they have the technology ready to use, but don't know if they want to do so. If so, it will be a completely different story and we would talk about a $5k+ camera with global shutter. But there a very loose speculation.

 

[xaviergut]

How could you get 8k from a 9 Mp sensor?

No idea, I guess it depends on the ultra-mega-magical "organic sensor" and the "engine" to move it.

But the S1Hii that Camera Zone mentions in the video is more a S1Rii, more photography oriented, according to the specs they believe the camera will have.

 

[xaviergut]

There won't be video centred S1iix and S1Hii at the same time, with different but very similar specifications. Doesn't make sense to me.

Exactly, it doesn't make sense. They say things that sound a bit strange, for example that the S1X is a cinema camera with 9mpx and at the same time the Lumix flagship to compete with the Nikon Z9 /Z8, the Sony A1 or the Canon R3... I don't see it.

 

[Oíche]

Exactly, it doesn't make sense. They say things that sound a bit strange, for example that the S1X is a cinema camera with 9mpx and at the same time the Lumix flagship to compete with the Nikon Z9 /Z8, the Sony A1 or the Canon R3... I don't see it.

Yip it sounds like complete nonsense.

Lumix unlikely to compete with those flagship action cameras, a possible S1R upgrade 61MP is nowhere near this stuff having a very slow sensor. I actually don't think they'll do that 61MP camera and perhaps wait for something with higher performance. Leica gets away with 4fps being Leica and I think the demand ain't there for a big body similar Lumix with poor read-out speeds. I think Lumix knows they need to maintain high speed performance and releasing a cheaper Leica high megapixel clone is not in their interest.

Given the S5ii I don't see the point of a larger bodied S1 upgrade, I reckon that is obsolete, I think they might do a S1R upgrade and a variant S1H using the same body like S5ii/S5iiX with a high read out sensor. Whilst not taking on global sensors it would be a big leap above the too slow for 2024 61MP Leica and perhaps capable for 8k 60p.

If my speculation is correct it'll be next year

 

[Oíche]

Anyhow - all speculation I know! Time will tell if I'm right or completely off track.

I've only read your post after posting elsewhere, I was thinking almost exactly alike except the shutter noise OMG you should have heard the Pentax K-30 pissing people off in a Queens University concert I did. Shutter on S5ii would be no problemo and then electronic shutter would eliminate it in such a scene.

In Pentax forums they were snobby about built quality and shutter noise always wanting to demote my K-30 and I was the one up in the mountains -15C doing landscapes and they were photographing their cat inside the house with their premium build "pro" cameras.

The only thing I can fault regarding build quality on the S5ii is the door on the right side where the SD card goes in, I never use it, it can pop out when taking the camera out of the bag and it is plastiikicy and no lock on it either. Yes this feels entry level indeed!

But this exists on high end cameras too, Matt Granger posted a video on how he broke the same style of access door on his Z9 when it fell over and he duct-taped it.

I'd hate to drop any Lumix camera and lens... It isn't designed for such abuse

 

[Lsake]

I’d love to see an S1RM2 with 60MP sensor. They could use the S5M2 body, but instead of a fan they could use the space for a higher performance EVF, and keep the tilt screen rather than the articulating one.

 

[pdk42]

I’d love to see an S1RM2 with 60MP sensor. They could use the S5M2 body, but instead of a fan they could use the space for a higher performance EVF, and keep the tilt screen rather than the articulating one.

That would be very nice, but I can’t see it happening. Either we’ll get a Panasonic interpretation of the SL3, or some mélange of S1H/S5ii type hybrid thingy.

 

[RuleOfThirds]

I would prefer a S5ii camera but with tilt screen instead of articulating, and a lcd (really would love to have one). I know that for video use articulating is preferred ... but I'm a photo guy first.

 

[AlanC]

Rumour of an updated S1Hii from CameraBeta on Weibo:

[Panasonic Lumix S1H II may be released in the fourth quarter] Get the latest news. After the release of Panasonic GH7, the S series full-frame body will be updated. According to previous rumors, Lumix S1H II is on the list and is expected to be officially released within the year (fourth quarter).

https://www.weibo.com/u/5029300214

 

[pdk42]

Rumour of an updated S1Hii from CameraBeta on Weibo:



https://www.weibo.com/u/5029300214

That sort of supports my suspicions - Panasonic's emphasis on a high-end FF camera will be video/hybrid orientated rather than hi-res stills. That is - probably no S1R ii.