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News Lumix S9 - new camera rumor roundup

Are you all forgetting the S9 with open gate, 24MP FF, IBIS and the LUT features is already the cheapest small FF camera with this style? It's already £680 cheaper than Sony ZV-E1.

I know. But I am afraid that the target group will not understand all this.

I think that if you go in a store and tell the salesman that you want a small camera for vlogging, he will propose you 3 cameras. Sony ZVE10 for around 700€, Lumix S9 for 1700€ and the Sony ZE1 for around 2300€.

It will be difficult for the saleman to lift the unknowledgeble target group from 700€ to 1.700€.

There is the Lumix G100 for around 700€, but it does not look sexy at all.

This is why I think Panasonic needs another MFT camera, which looks more like a rangefinder to be cool. GX10 in different colors. Or a significant lower price for the S9.

Does anybody know the local Japan price for the S9?
 
FYI

Hugh just posted under his video, that the anti-glare screen protector does make a difference! Z04 Carrot

And that the Sigma 24/3.5 is a good fit.

Oh my God.. I am afraid this will not end good for me in the long run... Z04 Wife
 
It will be difficult for the saleman to lift the unknowledgeble target group from 700€ to 1.700€
Any salesperson worth their salt can explain the benefits of FF over MFT and others, it should be easy for them as it's a great product at a great price.

Plus most UK stores do 6-12 or even 24 months 0% free!
 
Exactly. I invite the forum to watch just 2 minutes of this video by Dustin Amstrong (from 1:04 to 2:48):
The main thing I noticed in that video is the great audio quality with the DJI MIC that I touted in another thread.
 
Hugh just posted under his video, that the anti-glare screen protector does make a difference! Z04 Carrot

And that the Sigma 24/3.5 is a good fit.
Oh my God.. I am afraid this will not end good for me in the long run... Z04 Wife
That's exactly what I have been saying! With a few small Sigma prices, this camera would be ideal as a light weight carry option.
 
The main thing I noticed in that video is the great audio quality with the DJI MIC that I touted in another thread.
Hahaha :D

For me the opinions of his wife, who is not a professional content creator, are very meaningful... She just doesn't need all this features and buttons in a camera. She wants something beautiful and uncomplicated. She is an amateur. That's it.

This makes me think why the camera is so expensive. Because this camera has way more features and professional hidden stuff than what the intended target group actually need or even understand.

I think Panasonic wanted more market share by making the best midrange FF mirrorles camera, the S5II /X (it is better than the Nikon Zf, Z6ii, the Canon R6ii and is on par with the Sony A7 IV but is cheaper), and now they released the best entry level mirrorles FF camera, but it is TOO GOOD for the intended target group! It is so good that it can not be cheap...

I just hope that Lumix put in the market this year the best Flagship FF mirrorles hybrid camera, the equivalent to the Leica SL3, but with the best video features ever Daumenhoch
 
This is why I think Panasonic needs another MFT camera, which looks more like a rangefinder to be cool. GX10 in different colors. Or a significant lower price for the S9.

I would like to see Panasonic release a m43 version of the S9. I've asked Panasonic if this is on the roadmap, it seems to make sense as Panasonic can re-use the body to help lower the R&D cost a bit.
i.e. a camera with a similar feature set as S9. Great IBIS, PDAF, in a similar (plasticky-ish) compact rangefinder body but also has similar limitations like single card slot, and limited video recording length because of the small body size.
I think that's what a lot of people would want?
And i guess people would want the new 25MP PDAF sensor from G9II so it's a good update to the old GX85/95..etc

Unfortunately, this new hypothesis camera will be likely have the same or similar cost as the S9. As most of the components would be identical, the G9II sensor is not cheap at all even compared to the full-frame sensor. And now if we add a EVF (or even an optional one) to the camera, and add a tiny mechanical shutter to make the traditional users happy, the extra R&D and manufacturer cost will push the price even higher, closer to G9II price I can imagine.
So now we have a m43 S9 with good but still limited features and selling at G9II price. It will easily become a GM1 or GM5 again. A nice camera but nobody wants to buy at the price that Panasonic can make money. And companies like to make money.

Something I've learnt recently is that making a small camera is REALLY EXPENSIVE. Miniaturisation is super super expensive. Making the chip smaller, making a small shutter unit, or finding ways to fit all the same components in a smaller body, all make the camera exponentially more expensive compared to a large camera body.
It has always been a problem, but it is a bigger problem now because back in the day when cameras were simpler and required a lot less hardware so it was easier to jam everything into a small camera and didn't need a large battery for it's less demanding processor. Also manufacturers used to sell a lot more cameras so they can spread the R&D cost into more units.
But right now, not only camera sales have dropped a lot, camera and consumer expectations have evolved to a state that any camera need to be able to do everything and great at everything. If a new camera can do less than anything less it is considered a "trash" (yeah i see lots of this word in my S9 review comments). So we basically want everything, but want them fit into a smaller camera, and we think because it's a smaller camera with more limitations, it should be sold much cheaper. However in reality, the cost of manufacturing is not necessarily any lower, and in some cases could be even more than a larger body with more features.

I'm not saying we won't see a small m43 camera again.. but it's not as easy/no brainer as, we just need to take this and that and sell it for $500.
 
Now that the dust has settled somewhat on the release and most of the reviewers who went to Osaka have dutifully posted positive reviews, here are my thoughts...
So, I'll make a prediction that the S9 will be a sales flop and selling at <£/$/€1000 by Christmas! I hope I'm wrong.
You could be right, I really don't know.

I have mostly looked at whether it can meet my needs as a small carry-around camera, both for photo and light duty video. I'm pretty sure it can. I don't know whether it can hit a broader "content creator" market and be a big success for Panasonic. I would have never predicted the phenomenal success of the X100VI - and I couldn't do any better predicting the fate of the S9.

Most of the limitations of the S9 are non-issues for me. The electronic shutter is something I deal with for video all the time and I know what it can and can't do. The bigger issue is no viewfinder. I've been out in bright sunlight using the display screen with my S5II, seeing what works and what doesn't and have started to identify solutions (I'm discussing this in another thread.)

I have a question about the S9 12 bit RAW files; dynamic range is important for me. I've mentioned several times I use the HDR capability in Lightroom to push out the display dynamic range. But there aren't any RAW converters out for the S9 yet, so it is hard to get a handle on this. What I did, there is a beta version for RawDigger just out that supports S9 RAW. And RawDigger can convert RAW to TIFF. So I downloaded several of the high contrast RAW files from the DPReview S9 review, converted them to TIFF, and looked at them in Lightroom. And then processed them to HDR in Lightroom. The answer is they are fine. I would rather have 14 bits but I can live with 12 bits for this camera.

I'm counting on that 18-40mm lens to fill out the carry-around camera. In the mean time I have some nice Sigma Contemporary lenses.

And I'll learn about Panasonic's implementation of LUTs.
 
TOO GOOD for the intended target group!
I don't think there is such a specific target group but if you mean 20yo hipsters I don't think it is too good for them, there are always people who want higher quality or the best and it could be argued the continual growing number of higher quality screens in devices demands higher quality capture. Phones, tablets, TVs... always increasing resolution, bit rate, HDR etc.

A good test for the above is watching older YouTube videos or video from anywhere and what looked decent then now looks awful as we have become accustomed to more refined imagery on devices.

Any phone video (yes any including Apple flagship) doesn't come close to the quality of the S9/S5ii sensor with L-mount lenses.
 
I can't see anyone honestly interested in the 26/8. Some will pick it up in a deal together with the camera. Some will buy it used from somebody who picked it up in a deal together with the camera. But I don't think someone has much use of it.
The thing that make me wonder about that… have you ever played around with old 8mm/16mm cine lenses? An awful lot of them were fixed-focus or fixed-aperture. Interchangeable lenses created by Wollensak and Elgeet and Som-Berthoit and Kern-Paillard and Cooke-Taylor, not just Keystone and Kodak and Argus.

Admittedly, this isn’t the 60s… but at the same time, I don’t think the fundamentals have changed completely. At some point, high-end lens manufacturers were making fixed-parameter lenses for film. They were a regular part of filmmaking kit. So what gives?

My best guess is something I speculated on earlier- a 28mm f/8 has a large hyperfocal range. Set the lens to hyperfocal distance, you’ve got a wide area in acceptable focus, without have to worry about the camera switching focus or focus breathing. Simple and reliable.
 
I personally would love to have a S9x with an EVF in a rangefinder style with a tilting screen.

But I start to doubt, whether this would be possible without making the size of the body bigger. We will only find out, if Panasonic would launch a S9x.
Sorry for backtracking on this bit; I was driving all day Saturday and on my phone at the racetrack all Sunday.

Anyway.

Here, in a nutshell, is the reason why I think an EVF could be added to the S9 without increasing the size by a significant amount: They've done it before.

Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GM1-vs-Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GM5-back-view-size-comparison.jpg

5mm in height and 6mm in depth, which wasn't even enough for me to notice without having the cameras side-by-side.

That's what I've been basing my comments on this whole time. I owned both cameras. I had actual lived experience with how big a problem the lack of a viewfinder was on the GM1. I had actual lived experience with how little extra size it took to put in a usable EVF, a rear control dial, and a couple of programmable function buttons (not to mention a better thumb rest, moving the video record button to a spot where it wasn't always being accidentally being pressed, and removing the wonky control dial/4-way controller combination). The GM5 felt like the camera the GM1 should have been all along, and I still can't help feeling that one reason the GM series flopped is because the GM1 left a bad first impression and the GM5 took too long to fix it.

So given how close the S9 looks to the GM1, this feels like a relevant comparison in a lot of ways.
Maybe it just feels uncomfortable compared to a Ricoh GR3 or Lumix GX9? It does not help to have a fullframe sensor but you do not take it with you, because it feels like a brick. The Leica Q3 for example is way to big to feel like a lightweight carry around P&S.
Yup.

To be fair, the Sigma fp is also not really small enough to be a lightweight carry-around P&S. But it's still so much smaller and lighter than the S5 that the same basic idea applies; I'm far more likely to carry the fp around in a small, light bag than I am the S5 in a bag that's twice as large and heavy. Take today, at the Indy 500; carrying around the S5 in its bag was a bridge too far, especially since I was going with friends, but the fp just squeaked in under the 'acceptable carry bulk' line. The S9 looks like it could tick the same boxes.

If the screen is not bright enough in sunlight, it will limit the shooting envelope too much for me.
Exactly, this. Except that I keep seeing cameras that claim they're bright enough, but take them into a bright sunny Midwestern day and all I can see on the screen are ghosts.

The Ricoh GR3 is not great with this. I would not like to go below that benchmark. The Ricoh GR3 and Ricoh GR3x cost around 1.000€ each and are truly pocketable, have a leaf shutter and exceptional good usability and shooting envelope and excellent lenses. Therefore these 2 Ricoh GRs are my benchmark for all other alternatives like the Fuji X100 series, Leica Q series etc
I do get this. After mentioning my old Coolpix A - Nikon's equivalent to the G$ series, except it only lasted one generation - a few days ago, I pulled it out of storage and played with it a bit. It really is very liberating to have an APS-C sensor that fits in your pocket, and it is considerably smaller and lighter than either the S9 or fp. But at the same time, it was too limiting.
 
Unfortunately, this new hypothesis camera will be likely have the same or similar cost as the S9. As most of the components would be identical, the G9II sensor is not cheap at all even compared to the full-frame sensor. And now if we add a EVF (or even an optional one) to the camera, and add a tiny mechanical shutter to make the traditional users happy, the extra R&D and manufacturer cost will push the price even higher, closer to G9II price I can imagine.

Good arguments. I agree. The question would be, whether the target group would be willing to pay that price. If they do, there would be no problem.

This is all wild guessing and I only can speak for myself, but I would be probably willing to pay that price, because that body with a good EVF in a GX9 size body would give me more added value than a Leica Q3, which sells for 6.000€.

That "GX10" would give me in combination with the small MFT lenses a greater user experience than a APS-system of Sony et alii or a full frame system.

I see the problem with a GX10 without a viewfinder (features like the S9 with articulating screen etc), that in that case the target group might prefer an APS-C or fullframe sensor size camera. I do not think that this target group wants to buy many lenses. 1 lens, maybe 2. They do not need more for social media. I am afraid the advantage of small MFT lenses will neither be leveraged nor appreciated.

This is why I think the S9 with a fullframe sensor was a smart move. But Panasonic Q3 would be also sonething I would be very interested in. Teufel Grinsend Schwanz

I think the main problem of the GM1/GM5 was not the price, it was the too small size for the target group. Very small buttons, tiny EVF etc. Only few people like this.

I personally love my GM5, but each time when I had to decide between GM5 and GX9 for a trip, I always picked the GX9, because it was the better compromise in size and usability with all MFT lenses.

The good thing is that Panasonic is capable to do everything. They proved it in the past. The know-how is there. We just have to be patient.
 
5mm in height and 6mm in depth, which wasn't even enough for me to notice without having the cameras side-by-side.

I am no engineer and this is only an opinion without having facts, but I do believe in the GM1/GM5 bodies was more space because they used an extremely small EVF for the GM5 (which would not be accepted nowadays from the target group) and both have no real IBIS, which needs a lot more space. But as always, I can be wrong. Maybe someone can ask the engineers of Panasonic during an event.
 
Travis, sorry but that is a huge difference proportionally and especially perspectively hence why they didn't do that and I'm glad they didn't. It wouldn't be a small camera, just a same size S5ii with crap finder without a grip... That would be a flop!

I know Paul thinks but doesn't want the S9 to be a flop but watch what happens, the market is much wider than he and others personally want.
 
Any salesperson worth their salt can explain the benefits of FF over MFT

In Germany stores are dying like flies and the salespeople in 90% of the stores have no experience in photography. This is an absolute desaster in Germany. They sell what is easy to sell with the biggest margin or what is promoted in their weekly newsletter. Big tech-chains unload photo products like it would be chewing gums. The speed of the turnover is what counts for them. Only in the 5 or 6 biggest cities there are 1 or 2 good photo stores and even there, not everyone knows what he is talking about.
 
In Germany stores are dying like flies and the salespeople in 90% of the stores have no experience in photography. This is an absolute desaster in Germany. They sell what is easy to sell with the biggest margin or what is promoted in their weekly newsletter. Big tech-chains unload photo products like it would be chewing gums. The speed of the turnover is what counts for them. Only in the 5 or 6 biggest cities there are 1 or 2 good photo stores and even there, not everyone knows what he is talking about.
Actually I was quite surprised, in the Netherlands the big photo/video retailers always where 'sony this, sony that' but now they are advertising quite a lot with the S9. Both in the newsletters as in Facebook and such. And yeah I know about targeted marketing, but also how to go around that, they are really pushing the camera

I don't know if Panasonic gives a budget for this but I see it happening:1000019033.jpg
 
Good arguments. I agree. The question would be, whether the target group would be willing to pay that price. If they do, there would be no problem.

This is all wild guessing and I only can speak for myself, but I would be probably willing to pay that price, because that body with a good EVF in a GX9 size body would give me more added value than a Leica Q3, which sells for 6.000€.

There are of course some people who can appreciate the value/cost of a nice compact m43 camera and happy to pay the premium price.
But I would guess majority of people wouldn't want to pay the G9II price for a smaller micro four thirds camera with lower resolution EVF, single card slot and other compromises that doesn't have a Leica badge on it.
 
It's already hard to justify the S9 price so close to the S5II and the market for m43 is even more price sensitive than the FF market. Also the sales volume in today market is much smaller, especially for entry level cameras comThats why I don't beleve in a m43 S9.pared to back than when the GM1 and GM5, event the GX80 came out. So the margin has to be higher than back than. A m43 version of the S9 would probably in the price region of the Fuji X-T50 but with smaller sensor and worse specifications. A Fuji X-E5 is in the rumors and will probably be a smaller renage finder style version of the X-T50. Of course there is a m43 community who will appreciate a m43 verson of the S9, but this community is much shrunk. I don't see such a camera coming any time soon.
 
It would be interesting to know which target group Sony focused on and how well they sell the A7c, A7c2 and A7Cr. All 3 were well above 2000€ at introduction.

We have already first reactions to the Lumix S9. Sony slashed the price of the A7c to 1599€.
 
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