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What’s on the Horizon for LUMIX?

Some cameras may be one-offs if they don't sell well (GM5, GX8, perhaps even the S1-series?)

This was what I liked about Panasonic: they weren't afraid to try alternatives to the DSLR style mirrorless bodies that now dominate. I owned the GF1, GX8 (the tilting viewfinder was a really worthwhile innovation) and GM1 (still have it because it's an amazing piece of miniaturisation) and liked them all.

So if I like a camera don't buy it because you can be sure the manufacturer will discontinue it without a direct successor.

All the S1 series rumours seem to have dried up at the moment. Panasonic are apparently going to do a major keynote at CES (4/3 rumors) but it seems more likely it's thanks to them reintroducing their TVs in the USA.

Something unrelated: an L-Mount camera turned up in the top ten sales list for Kitmamura Camera in Japan... The Sigma fp / 45mm f2.8 kit at #10
 
I don't think Panasonic is playing in that game. Sony clearly is - they wanted to own the market and so they took on Nikon and Canon, offering a wide range of cameras at all levels and releasing new successor models quite frequently.

Panasonic clearly doesn't do that. They seem to target specific market segments in which they believe they can operate profitably. Some cameras may be one-offs if they don't sell well (GM5, GX8, perhaps even the S1-series?) while others have successor models if the original has been well received (G9, S5). They don't follow the big three brands who participate in the race to have the highest megapixels, the faster burst speeds, the highest video frame rates etc. And I can understand why. It would be a mug's game trying to stay in front of the big three on the basis of fastest/highest/bestest. Much better to find a niche in which to excel and play to your strengths (at least in my armchair view).
I agree: better to find a niche. It was clear that the Panasonic forté was in hybrid full-frame cameras that are good value, approximately half the price of an equivalent Sony. And if we look at the M43 range the niche was based on compact size.

In recent times, Panasonic have really confused the issue. They released an M43 camera as big as a full-frame. And they released the S9 which competes poorly with lower-end Sony offerings and is videocentric (not a hybrid).

So it seems to me that Panasonic have lost their way.

A new line of compact lenses would help them appeal to those wanting portability above all. And since retro is cool, these should have aperture rings and be based on classic optical designs. I've been calling for this for a long time. Now Chinese brands have got the message. There is a market here. And these products would match the S9.

A new high megapixel camera oriented towards photographers (but still with the video features) would naturally assuage that community. Meanwhile I keep eyeing the Fuji GFX series.

And a compact hybrid like an S9 with shutter and viewfinder. That would be my perfect camera... but we'll never see it now.
 
They released an M43 camera as big as a full-frame.

Although I would prefere smaller MFT bodies for myself, there is no doubt that other users prefer bigger bodies. It is not by accident, that the old G9 MK1 was selling really well. As soon as you use longer FL, a bigger body makes more sense. And some have bigger hands than me and prefer a bigger grip. There is a real usability advantage to have the same body with the G9ii and 5ii. The G9i is not smaller that the G9ii.

That does not mean that Panasonic should not offer a GX style body. I would love to have one. I am optimistic that we will see a GX style MFT body in the future too. But they have to prioritize like everyone else. You can not do everything at once.

If you want to have immediately a smaller MFT body, you can get very often an Olympus EM1 Mk3 second hand or a PEN F or a Lumix GX body.

Image quality of all the "old" 20MP sensors are almost identical to the new 25 MP sensor in the Lumix G9ii.


A new line of compact lenses would help them appeal to those wanting portability above all. And since retro is cool, these should have aperture rings and be based on classic optical designs. I've been calling for this for a long time. Now Chinese brands have got the message.

Sigma was faster than the Chinese. Since a couple of years there are plenty Sigma i-series lenses with excellent image quality, metal body, aperture ring, small and compact. With AF. Sigma is one of the 3 founding partners of the L-Mount. It does not make sense for Panasonic to offer now exactly the same.

It would be better to focus on new products/ lenses, which do not exist yet in the L-Mount world in that specific way. Like the 20-60 or the 18-40.
 
In recent times, Panasonic have really confused the issue. They released an M43 camera as big as a full-frame. And they released the S9 which competes poorly with lower-end Sony offerings and is videocentric (not a hybrid).

So it seems to me that Panasonic have lost their way.
That's an interesting point. I do confess to being quite confused with what Panasonic are doing too.

From what I read about Panasonic's high-level position, they are not in a good state. For example, here is their CEO's presentation from May of this year => https://holdings.panasonic/global/corporate/investors/pdf/20240517_groupstrategy_note_e.pdf. This quote in particularly is illuminating:

At present, we are unable to meet the expectations of our stakeholders,
including shareholders and investors. I view this situation with a sense of
crisis.


I'm guessing that they've been wobbling about their long-term positioning in the camera/imaging market and the result has been a bit of a hotch-potch of releases that don't as a whole present a convincing commitment to the market. On top of that, the market (us, the media, the journalists) pore over every move they make trying to make sense of it all.

At the end of the day, we consumers can only react to what comes our way. I'm concerned about Panasonic's long-term positioning in the system camera market, but for the moment I'm happy with the gear I have. If at some future point that's not the case then I'll have to look at alternatives. I guess that's all I can do.
 
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It seems that there are different camps within Panasonic who fight for different products.

We got in 2023 the Lumix G9ii and the S5ii/S5iix. In 2024 a FW upgrade for the latter ones, which was almost like a new model release.

In 2024 we got the Lumix GH7 and S9.

The only missing models for us "senior" costumors are a replacement of the S1R/S1H and of thr Lumix GX9.

That would make 3 models for 2025. I do not know whether Panasonic can afford 3 different model releases in one year for this small market share/customer base. Maybe if they would announce/ release 2 in spring and 1 in autumn, this could be possible.

Do you remember the video of Sean I linked in the forum regarding different sizes G vs S?

Focus more on the photography side and underline the advantage of MFT.

Maybe that is a hint? Maybe not...

That could mean first a S1Rii and GX9ii and in 2026 a SHii if at all.

But the S1Rii has to be significantly better than the Leica SL3 IMHO.
 
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Someone referrenced the wait for Pentax K-1 regarding S1/S1R but that is DSLR tech from 2016 and already way behind with AF. The hot a Mark II which was 95% the same in 2018 which astro users hated with baked in RAW noise NR.

How much better would S1/S1R need to be? S5 to S5ii type jump or more MP? I can't see them doing S1.
 
In recent times, Panasonic have really confused the issue. They released an M43 camera as big as a full-frame. And they released the S9 which competes poorly with lower-end Sony offerings and is videocentric (not a hybrid).

So it seems to me that Panasonic have lost their way.

There isn't much information about the sales of the S9 other than Panasonic saying that it is selling well, so it's difficult to know if it will be a one-off or there will be successor models.

In my view, the minimalist design which is reminiscent of the GM1 and the colour range will make it attractive to more than just the "creator" market.

And I don't think the S9 was ever intended as a "me too" camera to compete directly with either Sony's ZV series or A7C series. I think Panasonic were intending to create their own niche with this camera. Perhaps that explains why Chris & Jordan at Petapixel described it as "baffling" in their review - they expect any new camera must fit into a pre-existing product category defined by the big three manufacturers. The S9 doesn't really fit neatly into any of them.

A new line of compact lenses would help them appeal to those wanting portability above all. And since retro is cool, these should have aperture rings and be based on classic optical designs. I've been calling for this for a long time. Now Chinese brands have got the message. There is a market here. And these products would match the S9.
I have four of the Sigma i-Series lenses, all compact and with aperture rings. I typically use three of these with the S9: the 24mm f3.5, 45mm f2.8 and 90mm f2.8. I've now just added the LUMIX 18-40mm f4.5-6.3 which is a collapsible design and quite small and light. I don't do much video so I am using the S9 as a compact stills camera.
 
I have four of the Sigma i-Series lenses, all compact and with aperture rings. I typically use three of these with the S9: the 24mm f3.5, 45mm f2.8 and 90mm f2.8. I've now just added the LUMIX 18-40mm f4.5-6.3 which is a collapsible design and quite small and light. I don't do much video so I am using the S9 as a compact stills camera.

Yes, everyone always mentions the Sigmas but they go only half-way to my ideal which already has its own thread.

Can I assume you are not taking many indoor photos with the S9? I absolutely need a real shutter for my work in clubs, etc. Viewfinder too, since I hate disturbing others with light spill.
 
Yes, everyone always mentions the Sigmas but they go only half-way to my ideal which already has its own thread.
Thanks Robin, I just re-read that thread to refresh my memory.

Can I assume you are not taking many indoor photos with the S9? I absolutely need a real shutter for my work in clubs, etc. Viewfinder too, since I hate disturbing others with light spill.
Yes, correct. I love being outdoors so for me, all photography is outdoors. I guess that's why the lack of mechanical shutter and EVF in the S9 is not a problem for me.
 
Another unreleased product, P2307A, has been registered in China. The Asobinet article has a summary of all the current registrations:

Panasonic's unreleased product "P2307A" registered with overseas certification agency Asobinet via Google Translate.
Thanks for sharing. Hopefully we will see soon what's behind sose registrations. The successors to the S1 series would be obvious. But what takes them so long? It's been more than a year since the P2303A registrations.
 
Yes, correct. I love being outdoors so for me, all photography is outdoors. I guess that's why the lack of mechanical shutter and EVF in the S9 is not a problem for me.

I wish more people would be as clear about this. Of all the S9 "reviews" I saw on release, not one person used the camera indoors. And not one person commented on that fact. It's like me reviewing a lens only at F8, then claiming how wonderful it is!

In the meantime I still wish for a compact full-frame camera optimised for photography. But increasingly I expect some other company to leap-frog Panasonic. It's only the lack of IBIS in competitor's models that has held me back. In the meantime MFT suits me well enough when travel is a priority.
 
I wish more people would be as clear about this. Of all the S9 "reviews" I saw on release, not one person used the camera indoors. And not one person commented on that fact. It's like me reviewing a lens only at F8, then claiming how wonderful it is!
I think for stills that the S9 is really a poor option. No EVF, no mechanical shutter, 12-bit raws, single dial. It's about as far from what I'd be looking for in an FF stills camera as I can imagine.

In the meantime I still wish for a compact full-frame camera optimised for photography. But increasingly I expect some other company to leap-frog Panasonic. It's only the lack of IBIS in competitor's models that has held me back. In the meantime MFT suits me well enough when travel is a priority.
The Sony A7Cii and A7CR fit that bill fairly well - at least in principle. I had an afternoon out yesterday with a friend who has an A7CR. He let me play with it for an hour or two, along with the Sony 20mm f1.8 lens. So, I took a bunch of shots with it, many of which I also replicated with my S1R and also an EM1.3.

In a nutshell, it's a nice camera, if not perfect. It's about the same size as an EM1/OM1 and very light. It has three dials on the top-plate, plus the dial on the back panel next to the screen. It has a mechanical shutter and an EVF.

The EVF though is nothing to write home about. In fact, it was worse than I was expecting. I've played with an A7CR before at a trade show and although my immediate impression then was "it's small", I thought in other ways it was OK and that I could probably live with it. But using it in contrasty November sunshine, the experience was not so appealing. The contrast seemed way too high meaning that shadow areas were very nearly totally black. I tried playing about with display contrast and setting a colour mode that was lower in contrast but it didn't really make much difference.

Putting the S1R to my eye was just another level of EVF experience and I felt much more "in tune" with the world and the photographic experience in general compared to the A7CR. In fact, I felt somewhat disconnected from the shooting experience using the A7CR. So, yes, it's got an EVF, but it's pretty mediocre. Could I get used to it? Probably. Is it an acceptable compromise for the benefit of such a small body? I'm not so sure. I've got used to the S1R now so whenever I pick up the S5 it seems small. I'd be very happy with more S5-sized cameras. I think it's the sweet spot of size, handling, and usability.

But in other ways the A7CR is quite an amazing bit of kit. IQ is superb (although in real terms, no better than the S1R). The IBIS seems pretty good too - probably getting up to the same level as the S5 and S1. And the body is stuffed with features. And I like the handling too. I've got relatively small hands and its size was fine. If you've got bigger hands, you'll probably appreciate the little grip extension that comes with it.

Do I wish there was a Lumix version of the A7CR? You bet - especially if the EVF was just a little better.


PS I also took a number of shots with the EM1.3 (with the PL 12-60 fitted). I love the EM1.3 for its handling and features. And the IQ, whilst not up to the S1R or A7CR, is perfectly acceptable for most things. The EVF on the EM1.3 is showing its age, but it's still a lot better than the one on the A7CR.
 
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But in other ways the A7CR is quite an amazing bit of kit. IQ is superb (although in real terms, no better than the S1R). The IBIS seems pretty good too - probably getting up to the same level as the S5 and S1. And the body is stuffed with features. And I like the handling too. I've got relatively small hands and its size was fine. If you've got bigger hands, you'll probably appreciate the little grip extension that comes with it.
The Sony A7CR is a really interesting camera. Paired with the Sony 40mm f2.5 G is an alternative to the Leica Q3 43. But for the A7CR and the other Sony R cameras you need a superb lens to fully exploit the potential of 61mp in order to get everything tack sharp across the entire image. I mean G Master lenses. I guess the Sony G Lenses are good enough too?

If you put the 24mm f2.8 in the A7CR you get the alternative to the Leica Q3 28mm (actually 26mm) original. I have seen this Lens new for 500€. That means:

Sony A7CR new: 3.700€
Sony 40mm f2.5 new: 500€
Sony 24mm f2.8 new: 500€

For 4.700€ you have the Leica Q3 and the Leica Q3 43 together in a much smaller pack, and much more affordable :
Leica Q3 new: 6.250€
Leica Q3 43 new: 6.750€
Also, both togheter 13.000€.

There you go... With IBIS, pixel shift, excellent AF, Sony E system Lens versatiliy, very good video. Ok, you sacrifice the Evf, but nothing is perfect. It is possible to use your smartphone as a 6.5 inch display with a universal mobile adapter connected to the hot shoe, a USB-C cable and the Monitor + app or the Sony creators app.

The A7CR is calling me... Z04 Dm Walk maybe for Christmas...
 
The Sony A7CR is a really interesting camera. Paired with the Sony 40mm f2.5 G is an alternative to the Leica Q3 43. But for the A7CR and the other Sony R cameras you need a superb lens to fully exploit the potential of 61mp in order to get everything tack sharp across the entire image. I mean G Master lenses. I guess the Sony G Lenses are good enough too?

If you put the 24mm f2.8 in the A7CR you get the alternative to the Leica Q3 28mm (actually 26mm) original. I have seen this Lens new for 500€. That means:

Sony A7CR new: 3.700€
Sony 40mm f2.5 new: 500€
Sony 24mm f2.8 new: 500€

For 4.700€ you have the Leica Q3 and the Leica Q3 43 together in a much smaller pack, and much more affordable :
Leica Q3 new: 6.250€
Leica Q3 43 new: 6.750€
Also, both togheter 13.000€.

There you go... With IBIS, pixel shift, excellent AF, Sony E system Lens versatiliy, very good video. Ok, you sacrifice the Evf, but nothing is perfect. It is possible to use your smartphone as a 6.5 inch display with a universal mobile adapter connected to the hot shoe, a USB-C cable and the Monitor + app or the Sony creators app.

The A7CR is calling me... Z04 Dm Walk maybe for Christmas...
In the UK, the A7CR can be bought for a little under £2000 on the grey market.

But I’m not convinced by it personally. I’m not sure I could cope with the EVF. If I were persuaded to switch to Sony, I’d go for the A7RV. It’s not a lot more than the A7CR, but it’s got a superb EVF and it’s still a fairly small camera.
 
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