What’s on the Horizon for LUMIX?

[Travis Butler]

TBH besides being beer money and the legacy look I've no idea why you'd want to use these. The push-pull is pretty horrid to use also. I'll be surprised if you like it, I would have given you both of mine for free and an M-135 f3.5 prime which is better.

Well, there is the legacy look... but the biggest reason is what I've been talking about earlier: size/weight. It's one of the smallest zooms I've seen that goes out beyond 135mm - I've used 135mm primes that were larger and heavier. And it seems like it's small/light enough to be usable on the fp, which would be nice to have.

Though money does play a part... as I said earlier, I don't use >135 enough to justify spending $800 on the 28-200, which is somewhat smaller than the Pentax.

 

[Oíche]

Though money does play a part... as I said earlier, I don't use >135 enough to justify spending $800 on the 28-200, which is somewhat smaller than the Pentax

Well for $20 you can have a day out then fire it into the nearest lake.

Just remember to remove the camera beforehand.

 

[Jonathan-Mac]

Out of curiosity, did you ever use the Pentax-M 75-150/4?

Found a copy yesterday at an estate sale for $20, figured I'd give it a shot; it seems to get good reviews.

Yes, though I very recently sold it as I haven't used it for years (I much prefer primes).

The M 75-150/4 is one of the very few zooms from the manual focus age which performs very well and I would highly recommend it, especially for $20, but even for the $40 or so it usually sells for it's a bargain. Certainly not worthy of being thrown into a lake.

Here are a couple of favourites of mine taken with it, though bear in mind these are from my old 10MP K200D. Still, you can zoom in on the horse (which was taken wide open) and see the level of detail.


IMGP0225a by Jonathan MacDonald, on Flickr


Sundown over Segovia by Jonathan MacDonald, on Flickr

 

[Oíche]

Well, there is the legacy look... but the biggest reason is what I've been talking about earlier: size/weight. It's one of the smallest zooms I've seen that goes out beyond 135mm - I've used 135mm primes that were larger and heavier. And it seems like it's small/light enough to be usable on the fp, which would be nice to have.

You'd probably prefer the M135 f3.5 prime at a mere 270g and without the horrid push-pull zoom it is far more pleasant to use, especially for a FP. I've 2x of these also as I got one free but I think you'd prefer it and they also are beer money.

Also 8 blades vs 6 for nicer sun stars, bokeh octogons vs hexagons.

 

[pdk42]

A "professional" wildlife photographer here having a right old whinge about the lack of an S1 replacement:

 

[CharlesH]

A "professional" wildlife photographer here having a right old whinge about the lack of an S1 replacement:

I'm certainly not a professional wildlife photographer, but I do shoot wildlife. I got a S1 when it first came out and took it to photograph bears; I used the 70-200 f/4 with a 1.4x teleconverter. The idea was to do some video along with stills. But the trip was a bust, the few bears were far away, and hardly moving. I got some nice pictures of Alaska scenery, but no wildlife to speak of, and that was my only wildlife experience with the S1, or any Lumix camera.

But I have a Sony A1, a bonafide wildlife camera that I use for wildlife. I have photographed much closer and fast moving bears on Alaska's Kodiak Island with the A1, as well as whales during the whale season in Hawaii. The 30 fps is a godsend for this. I have been wishing for a Panasonic flagship camera that mimics the A1, with its 50 MP stacked CMOS sensor, along with the good handling and the feature set of Lumix cameras, and a high frame rate for photos, and good Lumix video performance. This is unlikely to happen, but that is my wish.

And now Sony just announced the A1 II. Fortunately I don't have any wildlife trips planned, but if I did the A1 II would be very tempting with both pre-burst and even better auto-focus. While I dream of a flagship Panasonic, Sony has upped the game.

 

[Oíche]

While I dream of a flagship Panasonic, Sony has upped the game.

Errrrr that's many Lumix users have a POV of not bothered with this being pursued... there are already 3 giants of FF pro sports photography already. Those are specialist cameras that you're unlikely to want to use for much else so you can buy one and a big lens and have it alongside your S9 or whatever.

Panasonic have likely already calculated a lack of viability in wrangling enough of that market off the big 3.

For me I don't care and would be happy with the Sigma 60-600, an S5ii and skills.

 

[Quentinquirelino]

...While I dream of a flagship Panasonic, Sony has upped the game.

I think a S1HII could become exactly that without intention to be exactly that. Wildlife flagships and video beasts have very similar hardware requirements for the body. Both need a fast sensor for high frame rates and nowadays even video shooter won't to have higher resolution, like photo shooters die like always. Maybe video has higher requirements for head management, but maybe high burst Rates also could benefit from that.

And as I said previously. Panasonic tend to don't hold back with features for the other side of the fence. Panasonic put everything video in the photo oriented G9II what the body without fan is capable of and made it a even better video camera then there video centered GH6 at that time for many use cases. And they did the same with the GH7 as a video centered camera and enhanced there photo capabilities above the G9II.

I expect the same for the upcoming Lumix S cameras, what probably will be the S1H successor and some kind of a S1R successor. The S1R successor (my guess would be a S5R) will probably get the 61 Mpix Sensor we currently see in the SL3. But with that sensor, it can't be a video beasts for video enthusiasts, neither something for fast sports or wildlife photography. However, a S1H successor could become exactly that.

 

[pdk42]

Errrrr that's many Lumix users have a POV of not bothered with this being pursued... there are already 3 giants of FF pro sports photography already. Those are specialist cameras that you're unlikely to want to use for much else so you can buy one and a big lens and have it alongside your S9 or whatever.

Panasonic have likely already calculated a lack of viability in wrangling enough of that market off the big 3.

For me I don't care and would be happy with the Sigma 60-600, an S5ii and skills.

Maybe. But from how many markets do you exclude yourself before the notion of a system camera becomes moot?

As it is now, we only have two current FF cameras from Panasonic. One (S9) is basically a video/vlogging camera, the other (S5ii) a heavily video-skewed hybrid. Both cap out at 24Mp. Neither are going to persuade action photographers, landscape photographers, studio photographers, etc to the system. I’m not saying that you can’t do these things with the current Lumix cameras - just that there are more appropriate cameras from other brands.

That’s why Panasonic need a new flagship, and soon. As it is now, their appeal to the photography-mainly market is price. The S5ii is a real bargain if you are happy with 24Mp, good but not top notch AF, and fairly slow burst rates. But that won’t appeal to everyone.

 

[Jonathan-Mac]

You'd probably prefer the M135 f3.5 prime at a mere 270g and without the horrid push-pull zoom it is far more pleasant to use, especially for a FP. I've 2x of these also as I got one free but I think you'd prefer it and they also are beer money.

Also 8 blades vs 6 for nicer sun stars, bokeh octogons vs hexagons.

The M 135/3.5 is a decent lens but needs to be stopped down to f/5.6 to get properly sharp. I'd say the 75-150/4 is sharper wide open. While the 75-150 is a push-pull zoom it doesn't extend, so the zoom ring slides along the length of the lens without changing that length, and it's closest to the camera, where it's more stable, at 150mm, which is good.

In the end these are both cheap and easy-to-find options, so worth trying out to see which you prefer.

Maybe. But from how many markets do you exclude yourself before the notion of a system camera becomes moot?

As it is now, we only have two current FF cameras from Panasonic. One (S9) is basically a video/vlogging camera, the other (S5ii) a heavily video-skewed hybrid. Both cap out at 24Mp. Neither are going to persuade action photographers, landscape photographers, studio photographers, etc to the system. I’m not saying that you can’t do these things with the current Lumix cameras - just that there are more appropriate cameras from other brands.

That’s why Panasonic need a new flagship, and soon. As it is now, their appeal to the photography-mainly market is price. The S5ii is a real bargain if you are happy with 24Mp, good but not top notch AF, and fairly slow burst rates. But that won’t appeal to everyone.

I wouldn't say the S5 or mark II are heavily skewed towards video as that suggests they're less capable than their peers at photography, which isn't true. It's more that they include more and better video features than their peers without impacting their photography credentials. What's heavily skewed towards video are the people who use them and online reviews - try finding many S5(II) reviews that don't largely focus on video over photography. I bought my S5 for photography and it was clearly the best choice regardless of the video output it can produce.

 

[pdk42]

I wouldn't say the S5 or mark II are heavily skewed towards video as that suggests they're less capable than their peers at photography, which isn't true. It's more that they include more and better video features than their peers without impacting their photography credentials. What's heavily skewed towards video are the people who use them and online reviews - try finding many S5(II) reviews that don't largely focus on video over photography. I bought my S5 for photography and it was clearly the best choice regardless of the video output it can produce.

I can see your point here. But I do think it's also true that compared with out-and-out photography-targeted cameras like the Z7/Z8, A7Rx etc, the S5ii feels underwhelming when looking at the feature set. It's not got the best AF, it's not got the best Mp count, it's not got the best burst capability, it's not got access to as wide a range of lenses, and it's not got the same brand recognition/trust.

Now, I'm definitely not saying that the S5ii (or the S5) are unsuitable (or even inferior) for many types of photography - hell, it was the S5 that got me into all this ! But I'm putting myself into the shoes of someone who's buying into a FF system anew - maybe a beginner, maybe someone moving on from a DSLR, maybe someone unhappy with m43 or another brand (Pentax? ); and I ask myself why chose Panasonic over Nikon Z, or Sony E, or Canon RF. In my view we need a flagship that sets the bar high and says "we're in this game to be the best and to win". Maybe they'll sell many more S5ii bodies than S1ii, but I don't think a broad-church ILC camera system can survive only on mid-range models offered at bargain prices.

 

[Oíche]

Maybe. But from how many markets do you exclude yourself before the notion of a system camera becomes moot?

I'm only speculating why they do what they do.

Maybe they are freaked out by trying to be competitive along with the R&D cost and investment. It would be some undertaking.

I'm not opposed to it just as long it doesn't become Pentax II

 

[pdk42]

I'm only speculating why they do what they do.

Maybe they are freaked out by trying to be competitive along with the R&D cost and investment. It would be some undertaking.

I'm sure it's a really tough market. Big R&D needed with no surety of success. It's easy for us armchair camera company executives to second guess the right strategy!

I'm not opposed to it just as long it doesn't become Pentax II

 

[xaviergut]

I'm only speculating why they do what they do

I think Lumix and Leica are like a strange matrimony... they work together but at the same time they limit each other... they are like that oxymoron: a "happy marriage"...

 

[Quentinquirelino]

I think Lumix and Leica are like a strange matrimony... they work together but at the same time they limit each other... they are like that oxymoron: a "happy marriage"...

There is some truth in it. As far I know, Panasonic Lumix is big part of the development process and manufacturing of Leica photo products. The lens of the Q3 43 is parented by Panasonic and maybe the hole camera is co-developed by Panasonic. That partnership is probably very profitable for both and helps Lumix to stay in the industry.

Also it was not holding them back in the past. The first kind of agreement I heard of, that Panasonic should hold back, was with the SL3/S1RII agreement. But again. Panasonic probably also gets it's share with SL3 sales, so it's not to bad for them. But it's not so good for us customers, who don't want to pay Leica prices. We have to wait longer for a HighRes body with updated technology.

 

[Jonathan-Mac]

In my view we need a flagship that sets the bar high and says "we're in this game to be the best and to win". Maybe they'll sell many more S5ii bodies than S1ii, but I don't think a broad-church ILC camera system can survive only on mid-range models offered at bargain prices.

I agree entirely and Panasonic are taking far too long to replace the S1 series. This very much reminds me of Pentax (if anyone wants to check how long the K-1 II has been waiting for a replacement...)

 

[xaviergut]

There is some truth in it. As far I know, Panasonic Lumix is big part of the development process and manufacturing of Leica photo products. The lens of the Q3 43 is parented by Panasonic and maybe the hole camera is co-developed by Panasonic. That partnership is probably very profitable for both and helps Lumix to stay in the industry.

Also it was not holding them back in the past. The first kind of agreement I heard of, that Panasonic should hold back, was with the SL3/S1RII agreement. But again. Panasonic probably also gets it's share with SL3 sales, so it's not to bad for them. But it's not so good for us customers, who don't want to pay Leica prices. We have to wait longer for a HighRes body with updated technology.

Yes, someone said on this forum or in another one (I can't remember) that the rangefinder style photo centric Lumix camera was delayed because of the Leica Q3.

 

[Richard Wong]

Also it was not holding them back in the past. The first kind of agreement I heard of, that Panasonic should hold back, was with the SL3/S1RII agreement. But again. Panasonic probably also gets it's share with SL3 sales, so it's not to bad for them.

There are a lot of rumours that are just fake news

 

[Pete_W]

In my view we need a flagship that sets the bar high and says "we're in this game to be the best and to win". Maybe they'll sell many more S5ii bodies than S1ii, but I don't think a broad-church ILC camera system can survive only on mid-range models offered at bargain prices.

I don't think Panasonic is playing in that game. Sony clearly is - they wanted to own the market and so they took on Nikon and Canon, offering a wide range of cameras at all levels and releasing new successor models quite frequently.

Panasonic clearly doesn't do that. They seem to target specific market segments in which they believe they can operate profitably. Some cameras may be one-offs if they don't sell well (GM5, GX8, perhaps even the S1-series?) while others have successor models if the original has been well received (G9, S5). They don't follow the big three brands who participate in the race to have the highest megapixels, the faster burst speeds, the highest video frame rates etc. And I can understand why. It would be a mug's game trying to stay in front of the big three on the basis of fastest/highest/bestest. Much better to find a niche in which to excel and play to your strengths (at least in my armchair view).

 

[pdk42]

There are a lot of rumours that are just fake news

Yes, I think that’s probably true. There have been so many false dawns for the S1 replacement, it’s clear that none of the rumours had any basis in truth.