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Sigma fp/ fp L - would you buy it?

Thanks you very much for your feedback and the images!

So, there seem to be 3 criteria which bother most users. Some users more, some users less.

  • Screen in bright light (if you could live without a tilting screen)
  • Motion blurr/smearing because of the rolling shutter
  • No EVF
I am a fan of EVF and this usually would be a no-go for me. But since I like my Ricoh GR, which neither have a EVF, I would be willing to put this k.o criteria at the side. At least for now. The problem with the screen in bright light would probably be a bigger problem for me. I would love to use the fpL for travel. Most likey in countries with a lot of sun like Asia, Southern Europe or Canary Islands (close to Africa). I would need to test this to be able to judge whether I can live with it. I would not be willing to use this external VF or the hood on the screen.

Regarding the motion blur for street shooting: Is there a speed with which you were able to avoid the rolling shutter effect in street scenes with walking (not running) people in the streets?
 
Shutter speed a little faster wouldn’t hurt, for typical walking subjects.

This is not an Action Camera or a Birder’s Camera. The biggest downfall of this camera is certain artificial light sources cause banding.

Street and landscape are in its wheelhouse. The original loop attachment was my solution for brighter days affecting my ability to see the back screen.

I prefer a tripod for serious landscaping but it is a great walkabout setup with the 26-28 and the 28-70.

dirk said:
Thanks you very much for your feedback and the images!

So, there seem to be 3 criteria which bother most users. Some users more, some users less.

  • Screen in bright light (if you could live without a tilting screen)
  • Motion blurr/smearing because of the rolling shutter
  • No EVF
I am a fan of EVF and this usually would be a no-go for me. But since I like my Ricoh GR, which neither have a EVF, I would be willing to put this k.o criteria at the side. At least for now. The problem with the screen in bright light would probably be a bigger problem for me. I would love to use the fpL for travel. Most likey in countries with a lot of sun like Asia, Southern Europe or Canary Islands (close to Africa). I would need to test this to be able to judge whether I can live with it. I would not be willing to use this external VF or the hood on the screen.

Regarding the motion blur for street shooting: Is there a speed with which you were able to avoid the rolling shutter effect in street scenes with walking (not running) people in the streets?
Click to expand...
 
This photo from the 65:24 thread perhaps shows that the rolling shutter isn't a problem for walking people (and a running kid), although none of them are taking up much of the scene:



There are also a couple of birds in the sky that didn't get distorted or blurred (even at full size in the original) since they're sufficiently far off. The couple of examples I posted earlier in the thread are very much the exception in my experience.

If you like the Ricoh GR (much the same as I liked my Sony RX1) then the lack of a viewfinder may not be much of a problem. In the UK, Sigma run a "Select" scheme https://www.sigma-select-uk.com which allows you to hire lenses or a camera for a minimal cost which can be reclaimed if you buy a lens or camera. If they run the same scheme in Germany then it might be a reasonable way for you to test the camera.
 
For me, the lack of a viewfinder is an advantage. If I don't need it, I leave it at home and save weight for hikes in the mountains. For macros near the ground or shorter photo days where weight is not prio 1, I mount the viewfinder. I really like the adaptability of the fp L.
 
For my part I wouldn't buy any ILC without a mechanical shutter. That may change in the future, though I won't like it, but the sensors in the Sigma cameras are not up to the task of replacing a mechanical shutter except for in a few specialist cases. I'd also never spend a significant amount on a camera without a viewfinder or IBIS.

Leica bodies are also out of the question due to cost and weight, so that leaves me very much with Panasonic. I'm happy with that but would feel more comfortable if Panasonic (and the L-mount in general) had a higher percentage of the market to guarantee, as much as possible, it's continuation long into the future.
 
AlanC said:
This photo from the 65:24 thread perhaps shows that the rolling shutter isn't a problem for walking people (and a running kid), although none of them are taking up much of the scene:



There are also a couple of birds in the sky that didn't get distorted or blurred (even at full size in the original) since they're sufficiently far off. The couple of examples I posted earlier in the thread are very much the exception in my experience.

If you like the Ricoh GR (much the same as I liked my Sony RX1) then the lack of a viewfinder may not be much of a problem. In the UK, Sigma run a "Select" scheme https://www.sigma-select-uk.com which allows you to hire lenses or a camera for a minimal cost which can be reclaimed if you buy a lens or camera. If they run the same scheme in Germany then it might be a reasonable way for you to test the camera.
Click to expand...
Do they have the Sigma Select program in North America (USA)? This seems like a great program I would love to try.
 
jamestrotter.pictures said:
I’ve had a few vehicles elongated by rolling shudder but that’s because I setup the camera to fail with a too slow of shutter speed.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately the shutter speed has no effect on rolling shutter, it just gets rid of motion blur. With an electronic shutter, the shutter speed is the time between the pixels being reset and being read, and that can be much faster than a mechanical shutter can achieve. Rolling shutter is caused by the time it takes to read the data off the sensor: if this is slow then a quickly moving subject will have changed position quite significantly between the top and bottom of the sensor being read and will be distorted as a result. The Sony 60MP sensors in the fp L, A7Riv, A7Rv, M10 and Q3 are notoriously slow in this respect, taking 0.1 seconds to read the full area of the sensor.

The only way out is a global electronic shutter, which Panasonic have achieved with their organic sensor, or a stacked sensor such as the one used in the Nikon Z9 and Z8 that reads the data from the individual rows of pixels at the same sort of rate as the curtains on a mechanical shutter move.
 
AlanC said:
Unfortunately the shutter speed has no effect on rolling shutter, it just gets rid of motion blur. With an electronic shutter, the shutter speed is the time between the pixels being reset and being read, and that can be much faster than a mechanical shutter can achieve. Rolling shutter is caused by the time it takes to read the data off the sensor: if this is slow then a quickly moving subject will have changed position quite significantly between the top and bottom of the sensor being read and will be distorted as a result. The Sony 60MP sensors in the fp L, A7Riv, A7Rv, M10 and Q3 are notoriously slow in this respect, taking 0.1 seconds to read the full area of the sensor.

The only way out is a global electronic shutter, which Panasonic have achieved with their organic sensor, or a stacked sensor such as the one used in the Nikon Z9 and Z8 that reads the data from the individual rows of pixels at the same sort of rate as the curtains on a mechanical shutter move.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the explanation… I know I would speed up the shutter speed and the elongation of the vehicle would not duplicate, but it appears I was misidentifying the anomaly.
 
With regard to the fp-L, does anyone have a view on the Phase detect for video. All reviews of this function are at least a couple years old and I wonder if recent firmware updates have made it good, or not.
 
I do own and use a FP in parallel to my S1R. Because I also like IR photography and for this is still have a small Olympus MFT Kit, I though it may come in handy to get an FP and to convert it to IR or full spectrum. The I can ditch my Olympus MFT stuff fully and the FP is easy to carry in addition to the S1R.
And then one day, I was lucky to win an eBay action and got a FP for a very good price..... but I still have not L-Mount IR or full spectrum camera.

To my surprise I really felt in love with the FP. It is a really really nice camera. Build quality is superb, picture quality is really good, the color modes are really pleasing and the handling is much better then expected. (I an really like the S1R from an ergonomics point of view). So I was not capable of converting the FP because taking pictures is simply to good to make it a "special use case" camera.

But the FP is absolutely not a "fits all purpose" camera. I would never recommend it to anyone new to photography or not interested in spending time to master the limitations of the camera. If you want to shoot with bright lenses moving objects you can forget the AF of the FP. This works in my opinion just when doing Focus-Trapping like in good old days.

Another is LED lighting. If illumination is done by LED you need to sync the shutter speed to the frequency of the LED / a product of multiplication. The camera has not mode to automatically sync like the S1R is able to. This can be a limitation and at least is happened to me several times at indoor pictures that I forgot and didn't recognized the flicker in the picture during quick preview on the camera.

I also think the FP has really good video capabilities, but I can not comment this, because I I do 99,7% stills. But the continuesly added video modes, the dedicated video interface (via HW switch) are promising and as I understood the RAW video shall be handy because it is easy to edit.
 
I have been using the FPL for awhile now and agree it’s a bit quirky but as a stills shooter it’s very easy to set up to your own shooting style. . One thing I‘m trying to avoid is the add on EVF as I feel it is too awkward and spoils the cameras ergonomics.

To get around that I’ve purchased 3 Sigma contemporary primes with auto focus and I’ve just installed a flip screen kit that comes with a removable sunshade all in carbon fibre,very light. I’ve also attached an aftermarket grip that I feel is better than the ones offered by sigma. The sunshade is reminiscent of using my old Rollieiflex . Not pretty but good in a pinch.

I‘ve been a Leica shooter (M8, M9, M240, Q, Cl) for many years, my eyesight isn’t what it used to be so I stopped using rangefinder’s. i moved to the Q and Cl mainly because of their
EVF . Both are fine cameras. When Leica stopped developing the Cl, I decided to look elsewhere for my main walk around camera. I prefer small light cameras and small lenses. I decided on the FPL as I can still use my M glass with the M-L adapter. I’m cobbling together the camera that I hoped Leica would produce, a Q with interchangeable lense. I’m happy to say things are working out well. You probably know it eats batteries! I’ve since sourced an aftermarket grip that also holds a much larger battery. (3500ma. 25.9 Wh. than the one that comes with the camera i1200ma. 8.7Wh.) it’s inexpensive and the big plus is you don’t have to open the battery door to change it!

The three main complaints/concerns I’ve read are …. awkward to hold, no IBS, electronic shutter .
there are many aftermarket products to make the camera safe and comfortable to carry.

as a Leica shooter IBS was not in our lexicon for many years and not many complaints. This is where the electronic shutter shines, very fast exposures and no shutter slap. High ISO’s and thanks to software noise is pretty much a thing of the past . Fortunately long focal length lenses have IBS build in.

Rolling shutter is real but I have had very few issues of it. I shoot indoors and outdoors and never give it a though.
as they say “ the proof is in the pudding” and I’m very pleased with the files this camera produces. This camera doesn’t get in my way and I can concentrate on “trying” to bring home a few good images.
all the best
Allan
 

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If you are starting from scratch, this is what I built as a kit, all under their MSRPs…

FP L
16-28mm Contemporary
28-70mm Contemporary
100-400 Contemporary
1.4 booster

That’s the whole kit and I think I’ve got everything covered because I am not interested in sports, venue or wildlife photography.

I primarily enjoy landscapes/cityscapes and street/walkabout photography.

I think the entire system maybe underrated which is fine by me.
 
Baddog said:
I have been using the FPL for awhile now and agree it’s a bit quirky but as a stills shooter it’s very easy to set up to your own shooting style. . One thing I‘m trying to avoid is the add on EVF as I feel it is too awkward and spoils the cameras ergonomics. To get around that I’ve purchased 3 Sigma contemporary primes with auto focus and I’ve just installed a flip screen kit that comes with a removable sunshade all in carbon fibre,very light. I’ve also attached an aftermarket grip that I feel is better than the ones offered by sigma. The sunshade is reminiscent of using my old Rollieiflex . Not pretty but good in a pinch. I‘ve been a Leica shooter (M8, M9, M240, Q, Cl) for many years, my eyesight isn’t what it used to be so I stopped using rangefinder’s. i moved to the Q and Cl mainly because of their
EVF . Both are fine cameras. When Leica stopped developing the Cl, I decided to look elsewhere for my main walk around camera. I prefer small light cameras and small lenses. I decided on the FPL as I can still use my M glass with the M-L adapter. I’m cobbling together the camera that I hoped Leica would produce, a Q with interchangeable lense. I’m happy to say things are working out well. You probably know it eats batteries! I’ve since sourced an aftermarket grip that also holds a much larger battery. (3500ma. 25.9 Wh. than the one that comes with the camera i1200ma. 8.7Wh.) it’s inexpensive and the big plus is you don’t have to open the battery door to change it!
The three main complaints/concerns I’ve read are …. awkward to hold, no IBS, electronic shutter .
there are many aftermarket products to make the camera safe and comfortable to carry.
as a Leica shooter IBS was not in our lexicon for many years and not many complaints. This is where the electronic shutter shines, very fast exposures and no shutter slap. High ISO’s and thanks to software noise is pretty much a thing of the past . Fortunately long focal length lenses have IBS build in.
Rolling shutter is real but I have had very few issues of it. I shoot indoors and outdoors and never give it a though.
as they say “ the proof is in the pudding” and I’m very pleased with the files this camera produces. This camera doesn’t get in my way and I can concentrate on “trying” to bring home a few good images.
all the best
Allan
Click to expand...
Hi. Where did you get the flip screen kit, and if you use the fp-L for video, how is the Phase detect focussing? Cheers, Colin
 
Col said:
Hi. Where did you get the flip screen kit, and if you use the fp-L for video, how is the Phase detect focussing? Cheers, Colin
Click to expand...
Hi Colin,
the kit is from a company called “Dark Power laboratory. You can find than on the web and on YouTube. If you watch the video of how to install it you will see everything is provided except the solvent to soften the glue that holds the screen on. All the parts are carbon fibre and fit perfectly.
I don’t shoot video so I’m unable to comment on how phase detect works for video. I can tell you that I’m very satisfied with how it works for still shooting. Here is an example from our garden . I just composed and clicked the shutter. This photo was taken with the 45 f2.8 sigma contemporary lens.
 

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Baddog said:
Hi Colin,
the kit is from a company called “Dark Power laboratory. You can find than on the web and on YouTube. If you watch the video of how to install it you will see everything is provided except the solvent to soften the glue that holds the screen on. All the parts are carbon fibre and fit perfectly.
I don’t shoot video so I’m unable to comment on how phase detect works for video. I can tell you that I’m very satisfied with how it works for still shooting. Here is an example from our garden . I just composed and clicked the shutter. This photo was taken with the 45 f2.8 sigma contemporary lens.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I know of Dark Power Labs. I wondered if it were them. I'll look into it. I have had the fp since the week it was released. Absolutely love it but I need more reliable autofocus and was thinking of getting the fp-L as well. There are no good reviews on the focus which is frustrating. The image quality from the fp-L is extraordinary.
 
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