Petapixel chat on the SL3s and L mount’s future

[pdk42]

Interesting discussion. I agree with most of what they say. I think 2025 will be a make or break year for Panasonic.

 

[Oíche]

I don't know how you watched that. It's all YouTube drama

 

[Quentinquirelino]

I only have watched the L-Mount part and I think while they got some points, they are also very subjective in their point of view as reviewers and as former employees of a local camera store in Canada.
The real problem that I see with Panasonic is that they are completely have no higher end options. Neither for photography nor for videography. But the S5II is still one of the best mid-range cameras and even the older cameras like the S1R are still valid options for everyone who don't want to shoot fast subjects. In fact, while newer cameras are having faster sensors, they also tend to have worse DR and the S1 line had already gotten many features models from other brands got way later. Of course all of those are older cameras.
Also about the availability of lenses, that's maybe largely depends on market's and it's lot less of a problem with online offerings. I don't know about Canada, but here in Germany you can get every Sigma, Panasonic or even Leica lens in a matter of view day's (Leica is a little more difficult) and many of the bigger stores have them on stock.

 

[Jan.Wedekind]

I am somewhat worried that we will be disappointed. It seems unlikely that Panasonic will suddenly pull out a completely new sensor that Leica does not have. So we can expect basically the same sensor as the SL3 (ok but very slow readout) and the SL3-S, which is still the same sensor as the S5ii, which is still the same sensor as in the s1 plus PDAF.

I was hoping for a bit more. Some sort of stacked sensor would have been tempting

I’m also surprised that AF has not improved faster. I was expecting them to update and improve at a faster pace. Panasonic usually was very good with regular updates but they did not release much.

That’s the negative read. The positive one would be that they kept the surprises for after Leica’s releases so they are not looking bad. But I don’t see that being realistic given their L2 alliance.

 

[Quentinquirelino]

I am somewhat worried that we will be disappointed. It seems unlikely that Panasonic will suddenly pull out a completely new sensor that Leica does not have. So we can expect basically the same sensor as the SL3 (ok but very slow readout) and the SL3-S, which is still the same sensor as the S5ii, which is still the same sensor as in the s1 plus PDAF.

....

But there has to be a S1HII in the near future an it has to have 4k 60fps at least. That's not possible with those two sensors. So Panasonic will most likely introduce a new sensor. A S1HII or S1ii wouldn't make any sense otherwise.

 

[Nevyn72]

I am somewhat worried that we will be disappointed. It seems unlikely that Panasonic will suddenly pull out a completely new sensor that Leica does not have. So we can expect basically the same sensor as the SL3 (ok but very slow readout) and the SL3-S, which is still the same sensor as the S5ii, which is still the same sensor as in the s1 plus PDAF.

I was hoping for a bit more. Some sort of stacked sensor would have been tempting

I’m also surprised that AF has not improved faster. I was expecting them to update and improve at a faster pace. Panasonic usually was very good with regular updates but they did not release much.

That’s the negative read. The positive one would be that they kept the surprises for after Leica’s releases so they are not looking bad. But I don’t see that being realistic given their L2 alliance.

For video the also introduced the new camera first als Lumix, than as Leica. For Photography exactly the opposite.

I expect the Leica sensor on the S1Rii, and a new sensor on the S1Hii.

 

[pdk42]

For me, as a predominantly landscape stills photographer, L-mount is an excellent system and I have few real complaints with any of my gear (that's why I use it). The glass I need is there (a mixture of Panasonic and Sigma), and the bodies do what I need (IQ, stabilisation, ergonomics, features, build quality & reliability). The lack of class-leading AF is not a concern for me, and I don't need any fancy video features. Even if Panasonic launch a true Z8 competitor, I'm not sure I'd buy one immediately since the cost/benefit equation would not justify it.

So why do I predominantly agree with this PetePixel podcast? Well, the obvious risk is that unless L-mount reaches critical mass in the market, it's at risk of dying. At today's 4% share, it's a long way short of critical mass. And I find it hard to believe that a mass-market organisation like Panasonic will want to remain with such a low share. If Panasonic pulled the plug on L-mount, Sigma would surely lose enthusiasm too which would leave Leica as the sole player again; and there's no way that I'll be buying Leica bodies and lenses in the future.

So for me (and I think all of us), it's essential that L-mount is a strong player in the ILC market - and that means having competitive bodies across the various segments. Panasonic's current lack of anything other than entry/mid-level hybrid cameras (S5ii & S9) means that the system as a whole is not perceived as being truly comparable with Nikon Z, Sony E, or Canon R. No one is going to choose L-mount for sports or wildlife, or even event work like weddings because the AF is not considered up to the job (whether it is or not is not important, it's the perception). And it seems (based on my limited understanding of it) that even for high end video work, L-mount is now off the radar given that the S1H is considered outdated/obsolete.

So we are currently in the position where L-mount, as a complete ILC system, is well behind its competitors.

And Panasonic are AWOL. In 2019 when they launched L-mount they were about 6-9 months behind Nikon launching their Z system. Almost six years later, Nikon have gone from the launch bodies (Z7 and Z6) to the Z7ii, Z6ii, Z6iii, Z5, Z8, Z9, Zf, Z50, Z50ii, Z30, and Zfc. They have gone from "AF is sort of OK" to class-leading. And they have gone from being strongly photography-focussed to class-leading in video too. Canon have likewise re-invented themselves in mirrorless; and of course Sony are still seen as the tech leader in the market and are clearly the master of sensors. Meanwhile, Panasonic have launched the S5 (a repackaged S1) and, afters years of complaints about DfD, the S5ii. But where is the new flagship? Ever since I got into L-mount (late 23) there have been rumours/discussions about it, but still nothing.

So here we are in 2025 with the strong likelihood that we'll at last get the long-awaited S1 successors. But who knows when and what they will be? I think it's likely that we'll see an S1Rii relatively soon and that it will be effectively a cheaper SL3. That would be great for me - an SL3 lookalike will make a great landscape/studio camera - but with CAF and frame rates lagging their competitors, I can't see it doing much to bring new wildlife/sports/events photographers to the system. And of course, it's not a great video camera.

Which brings us to the S1ii/S1Hii. I strongly suspect that Panasonic will combine the two into a new hybrid camera - probably a similar approach to what they have done with the S5ii/S5iix, but in a higher tier. It will need to deliver significant improvements in CAF over what the SL3-s seems capable of; and of course it will need more than 24Mp and much faster readout to deliver the video modes the market is asking for. I really hope they don't stick with the current 24Mp sensor yet again - I think that would be very badly received by the reviewers and the influencers (for good reason).

So, for all these reasons I see 2025 as make or break for Panasonic. If we leave the year with a lukewarm reception to the S1ii launches then I'll be very concerned about the system's future. Panasonic need to show the market that L-mount can compete with the Z/E/R systems.

 

[dirk]

This PetaPixel review is - as always with youtube reviews - very subjective.

Reviewers always want to have the latest and greatest, above all in the high end market. But how many people would buy a 5000€ camera body for L-Mount?

Therefore I disagree with the PetaPixel view on the LMount system.

Lens wise we are in a very good shape. We have more native LMount lenses than the Nikon Z system. LMount might differ with some focal lenght, but this is only logical.

If you do not have yet one of the best AF systems, there is no added value in launching lenses which need this kind of AF system. Over the time tge AF will improve and so will the lens choice for these use cases.

I am photography oriented. I seldom do private videos with my Lumix cameras. I have different needs and would like to see therefore also different bodies than others.

Obviously there is a need for some upgrades, especially the S1R. But the amount of new bodies per year depend also on market share and target group. I still believe that at least 2 Lumix LMount bodies will be released this year.

Maybe also 1 new body for MFT. We have to bear in mind that Panasonic has 2 different sensor sizes to cover, like all other brands too.

I am very, very satisfied with my commitment to L-Mount and have no regrets. This system gives me now already more than I can use and for me the future for LMount is very bright. I have more fun with it than with my old Nikon Z mount or my current Fuji X Mount.

I am a happy customer - as long as Sigma introduce a good 28/2.0 i-series lens asap.

 

[AlanC]

It seems unlikely that Panasonic will suddenly pull out a completely new sensor that Leica does not have.

The various versions of the 25MP M4/3 sensor used in the GH6 / G9II / GH7 are unique to Panasonic and aren't stock Sony designs; perhaps a full frame version is a possibility? And, well, they did complete development of the organic sensor but chose not to use it. Plus the 47MP sensor in the S1R (and various Leica models) is a unique design. So Panasonic definitely have the potential to produce a new sensor of their own, but since nothing of the kind appeared in the SL3 or SL3s I'd guess that, if it does exist, it's more video oriented and would appear in the S1Hii, with the S1Rii getting the Sony 60MP sensor like the SL3.

But I'd agree with Paul: Panasonic really do need to cover more segments of the market: Leica are too expensive, and Sigma, with the fp and fp L are too niche.

 

[xaviergut]

For me, as a predominantly landscape stills photographer, L-mount is an excellent system and I have few real complaints with any of my gear (that's why I use it). The glass I need is there (a mixture of Panasonic and Sigma), and the bodies do what I need (IQ, stabilisation, ergonomics, features, build quality & reliability). The lack of class-leading AF is not a concern for me, and I don't need any fancy video features. Even if Panasonic launch a true Z8 competitor, I'm not sure I'd buy one immediately since the cost/benefit equation would not justify it.

So why do I predominantly agree with this PetePixel podcast? Well, the obvious risk is that unless L-mount reaches critical mass in the market, it's at risk of dying. At today's 4% share, it's a long way short of critical mass. And I find it hard to believe that a mass-market organisation like Panasonic will want to remain with such a low share. If Panasonic pulled the plug on L-mount, Sigma would surely lose enthusiasm too which would leave Leica as the sole player again; and there's no way that I'll be buying Leica bodies and lenses in the future.

So for me (and I think all of us), it's essential that L-mount is a strong player in the ILC market - and that means having competitive bodies across the various segments. Panasonic's current lack of anything other than entry/mid-level hybrid cameras (S5ii & S9) means that the system as a whole is not perceived as being truly comparable with Nikon Z, Sony E, or Canon R. No one is going to choose L-mount for sports or wildlife, or even event work like weddings because the AF is not considered up to the job (whether it is or not is not important, it's the perception). And it seems (based on my limited understanding of it) that even for high end video work, L-mount is now off the radar given that the S1H is considered outdated/obsolete.

So we are currently in the position where L-mount, as a complete ILC system, is well behind its competitors.

And Panasonic are AWOL. In 2019 when they launched L-mount they were about 6-9 months behind Nikon launching their Z system. Almost six years later, Nikon have gone from the launch bodies (Z7 and Z6) to the Z7ii, Z6ii, Z6iii, Z5, Z8, Z9, Zf, Z50, Z50ii, Z30, and Zfc. They have gone from "AF is sort of OK" to class-leading. And they have gone from being strongly photography-focussed to class-leading in video too. Canon have likewise re-invented themselves in mirrorless; and of course Sony are still seen as the tech leader in the market and are clearly the master of sensors. Meanwhile, Panasonic have launched the S5 (a repackaged S1) and, afters years of complaints about DfD, the S5ii. But where is the new flagship? Ever since I got into L-mount (late 23) there have been rumours/discussions about it, but still nothing.

So here we are in 2025 with the strong likelihood that we'll at last get the long-awaited S1 successors. But who knows when and what they will be? I think it's likely that we'll see an S1Rii relatively soon and that it will be effectively a cheaper SL3. That would be great for me - an SL3 lookalike will make a great landscape/studio camera - but with CAF and frame rates lagging their competitors, I can't see it doing much to bring new wildlife/sports/events photographers to the system. And of course, it's not a great video camera.

Which brings us to the S1ii/S1Hii. I strongly suspect that Panasonic will combine the two into a new hybrid camera - probably a similar approach to what they have done with the S5ii/S5iix, but in a higher tier. It will need to deliver significant improvements in CAF over what the SL3-s seems capable of; and of course it will need more than 24Mp and much faster readout to deliver the video modes the market is asking for. I really hope they don't stick with the current 24Mp sensor yet again - I think that would be very badly received by the reviewers and the influencers (for good reason).

So, for all these reasons I see 2025 as make or break for Panasonic. If we leave the year with a lukewarm reception to the S1ii launches then I'll be very concerned about the system's future. Panasonic need to show the market that L-mount can compete with the Z/E/R systems.

Excellent state of the art, Paul, about Lumix FF. I agree 99%. Just 1 thing:

And they have gone from being strongly photography-focussed to class-leading in video too

Nikon is still a bit weak for video. I agree thet they are better, but just one example: they added shutter angle in Z9 one month ago, more or less. The other cameras still do not have it.
Canon and Sony are class leasing in video. They even have cinema cameras. Let us see what Lumix does.

 

[Quentinquirelino]

In 2019 when they launched L-mount they were about 6-9 months behind Nikon launching their Z system. Almost six years later, Nikon have gone from the launch bodies (Z7 and Z6) to the Z7ii, Z6ii, Z6iii, Z5, Z8, Z9, Zf, Z50, Z50ii, Z30, and Zfc. ....

Panasonic did in 6-9 month less compared to Nikon the S1, S1R, S1H, S5, S5II, S5IIx, S9 in L-Mount and G100, GH6, G9II and GH7. So just two cameras less, in 6-9 month less. Maybe three, if we don't count S5II and S5IIX separately. Panasonic isn't that far off. They are basically a faster flagship camera away. If Panasonic will release the S1RII with 61 Mpix in February, they will have something Nikon is missing in it's lineup (assuming Nikon will not release a high resolution camera in between).

 

[dirk]

But I'd agree with Paul: Panasonic really do need to cover more segments of the market:

Although I kind of agree to this on one hand, I disagree or have fear for this on the other hand.

Of course I would love to have at least 6 new Lumix bodies (LMount and MFT) for all kind target groups/price levels, for video and photo in 2025 plus a Lumix version of the Leica Q3 and the Q3 43.

If profit, huge upfront investments and R&D costs would not matter, Panasonic and Sigma would certainly do this.

But reality is, that Panasonic and Sigma have to draw a red line each year, what they can afford to produce, in which quantity and how much R&D ressources they need each year to develop this pipeline. Leica is a different story because of their very special customer base.

Sigma would not be able to offer such a huge choice of lenses for L-Mount, if they would not offer the same lenses in Sony E-Mount. They would not be profitable. Panasonic does not have the R&D capacity to produce enough new lenses and bodies for the L-Mount system alone.

There is a reason why Leica and Panasonic choose Sigma as founding partner of the LMount alliance. This is not by accident.

But still, none of these 3 companies can compete with Nikon, Canon etc. from the very beginning. This needs more time to fill the gaps.

If you consider that the photo market is shrinking, it is impressive what the L-Mount alliance achieved since 2018 against the competition with millions of long term loyal customers for decades.

Would I like to see more? Yes. Will we get more? Yes.

Profitability is not a measure by volume of bodies or market share alone. Otherwise Leica would be already dead since 30 years.

Even Nikon shrinked dramatically its body choice. How many new APS-C models do they have? Nothing compared to the DSLR time.

So, what do I fear? I am not sure atm, whether Panasonic puts its focus of development in the right areas.

In 2003 Canon took over the DSLR market with the 300D. Before the introduction of the 300D, Canon had a low market share in the DSLR market. The 300D changed that dramatically.

Not because it was the best DSLR out there. Neither AF, nor image quality was as good as their top models. But the price performance ratio was better than with any other competitive offer. The Canon 300D was offered below 1000€. Nobody offered something as good at this price level.

Thanks to the 300D, Canon took over the DSLR market and is still the brand with the biggest market share.

We can learn from history. I do believe that if Lumix would offer an "average competitive" body below 1000€ body, they could gain significant market share.

The prices of the Lumix S5 is a good start, but it does not have PDAF.

I would rather like to see such a new low cost model than a successor of the S1 or S1H. Not because it would be the right model for me, but because it would help Lumix to gain significant market share. And with more market share, better high end models can be developed. The low cost models will pay for R&D of the high end models. Not the other way around.

The more users buy into the LMount lens mount, the more sales in bodies and lenses will follow.

 

[AlanC]

The low cost models will pay for R&D of the high end models. Not the other way around.

I see it rather differently: the collaboration with Leica will pay, or will help to pay, for the high end models. It was true of the SL2 and SL2s, and the SL3s appears to be based on the same platform as the S5ii but with Leica software and a better viewfinder and screen. So it seems unlikely that Panasonic had no involvement in the development of the SL3 (or the Q3 models, particularly given the 43mm lens appears, from the patents, to be a Panasonic design) leaving the question of why we haven't seen an S1Rii?

 

[dirk]

There is no contradiction. These are just two different ways of financing very high R&D costs.

The Leica-Panasonic cooperation helps both companies. But the cooperation alone is not enough to reach the goal of a long term big enough market share to be sustainable.

For this Lumix has to offer more affordable bodies. Photocentric bodies (if that exists nowadays at all). Both, in LMount and in MFT.

But maybe Panasonic has other plans. Maybe they are happy with a smaller, but more profitable market share. I could live with that. We will know in 5 years. It seems to me that they are waiting for something.

Maybe Trump? The next hurdle every brand has to face are tariffs in the US. We do not know yet how much this will influence prices, new products etc.

Or they want to offer a S1Rii, with significant better performance than the Leica and it is not ready yet? Who knows...