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6K opengate APC-mode in new firmware

Nevyn72

Nevyn72

LMF-Patron Gold
There seams to be a new hidden feature in the new firmware, although I do wonder if it really has a benefit over 4K because of the resolution in the sensor and the crop:



What do you think about this 'hidden feature', is it something or perhaps just a bug?

Mod edit to show the video directly. You can just copy/paste the YouTube URL in the normal text box and it will show up.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Surely not a bug. I guess that this feature should have been locked/hidden for the S5 and unlocked for a future camera body.

As far as I understood it, if you set to amorphic lens in the menu, that feature is invisible and you have the vignetting.

Did you see how the Lumix employee smiled, when he showed him that?
 
dirk said:
Surely not a bug. I guess that this feature should have been locked/hidden for the S5 and unlocked for a future camera body.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but not sure if the sensor has enough resolution with that crop.

Thanks for fix so that the YouTube video is directly shown Next time I'll do what you stated.
 
Nevyn72 said:
Yeah, but not sure if the sensor has enough resolution with that crop.

Thanks for fix so that the YouTube video is directly shown Next time I'll do what you stated.
Click to expand...
If my math is right, at super35, you're left with 16mp of sensor resolution which would be ~5k ish I think. If true, a 5k open gate at super35 crop would still be useful to some folks I'm sure.
 
If it's a aps-c crop from 24 megapixel sensor you are left with 10.5 megapixels.

So take your 24MP and divide by 1.5 twice (or divide by 1.5 squared). An APS-C crop from a 24MP FF sensor gives you a roughly 10.5MP image.
 
Nevyn72 said:
What do you think about this 'hidden feature', is it something or perhaps just a bug?
Click to expand...
It's not a bug, or even a feature. What it is, when he turns E-Stabilization on High it crops enough he can use Super 35 lenses and they don't vignette. Even with open gate.

I don't have any L-Mount Super 35 lenses (at least yet) so it's not too interesting for me.
 
Jayneboo said:
If it's a aps-c crop from 24 megapixel sensor you are left with 10.5 megapixels.

So take your 24MP and divide by 1.5 twice (or divide by 1.5 squared). An APS-C crop from a 24MP FF sensor gives you a roughly 10.5MP image.
Click to expand...
Correct,
FF is 36x24mm = 864mm2
APS-C excluding Canon = 23.6x15.6mm= 386.16mm2

FF/APS-C = 864/386.16 = 2.24 ~ 1.5^2 = 2.25 times bigger sensor

This is a bigger jump than going from FF to typical digital 'medium format' of 44x33mm = 1452mm2 which is 1.68 times bigger than FF

It would be a different ball game if digital sensors were the same size as Pentax/Mamiya 67 which would be 60x70mm = 4200mm2 and therefore 4.86 times FF :p

This new open gate crop couldn't be a 1.5x crop, the maths doesn't make sense. Did the video guy make a 1.3x crop claim? In that case you only have 14.2MP so what open gate is he talking about? With 1.3x crop you get ~ 4.6k 'open gate'. I thought open gate meant the full sensor readout so what the hell is he talking about? Am I lost or something or is he? You can't do 6k APS-C unless it is oversampled or something? To do 6k APS-C would require a 54MP FF sensor if 6k means 6000 x 4000 pixels.

Regardless I'm enjoying the 4k 50 1.5x crop on the 70-300 and I was never a videographer before obviously with Pentax until a few weeks ago.

One last thing... Obviously the mysterious L2 processor is a pretty decent piece of silicon and with the new firmware for me places it significantly ahead of the predecessors in capability and there could be more to arrive (meaning the processor is well capable of further refinement in, for example AF) . The 1.5 second pre-capture alone opens up a whole new realm of photography scenarios one would possibly not have considered or thought possible before Daumenhoch

Coming from a Pentax APS-C can you imagine the difference? I'm born again :p
 
If this Youtuber is correct it must mean an up-sampling from a lower pixel count to a higher one? Maybe 50/60 to 24/30?

It's weird Sean the Lumix rep looked bemused when he asked him like he didn't take him seriously. Other reps seemed to want instant distance also... rather like yeah there you try our lens, clear off now but bring it back? Z04 Kommmalherfreundchen
 
It has to be realtime upsampling, nothing else can explain it. Nothing so special if your 4k TV can do similar stuff, still good though. It can't be true pixel 6k as is obvious now.

Loving it Daumenhoch
 
Oíche said:
It has to be realtime upsampling, nothing else can explain it. Nothing so special if your 4k TV can do similar stuff, still good though. It can't be true pixel 6k as is obvious now.

Loving it Daumenhoch
Click to expand...
That's what I thought, but then I prefer 4k and do the upscaling in my software which would probably be better at it.
 
Nevyn72 said:
That's what I thought, but then I prefer 4k and do the upscaling in my software which would probably be better at it.
Click to expand...
Don't know, you would have to compare. Specific SoC hardware or software in the camera sampling could be better in this mystery L2 chip, my estimation is exactly this rather than 3rd party. Remember that if they make the hardware and software specifically for a purpose it is far more likely to be better... just like Apple do.

Judging by the image stabilty I'll hedge my bets they do it better than 3rd party software. I'm pretty confident in saying this and no PP waste of time, the Youtuber already showed this running about no?

I hate PP, I want the camera to do such mundane non-creative processes and we are getting it.
 
Oíche said:
Don't know, you would have to compare. Specific SoC hardware or software in the camera sampling could be better in this mystery L2 chip, my estimation is exactly this rather than 3rd party. Remember that if they make the hardware and software specifically for a purpose it is far more likely to be better... just like Apple do.

Judging by the image stabilty I'll hedge my bets they do it better than 3rd party software. I'm pretty confident in saying this and no PP waste of time, the Youtuber already showed this running about no?

I hate PP, I want the camera to do such mundane non-creative processes and we are getting it.
Click to expand...
For the stabilization I absolutely agree, but would do it in 4k, and upscale later.

And I also hate PP, that's why I switched to DaVinci Resolve (studio) 2,5 years ago and never looked back. So much more stable, so many extra options you really use, colormanaged, and in one package.

I bought the DaVinci Speed editor 2,5 years ago for 305 euro, including the Studio (paid) version of DaVinci Resolve.

And all the upgrades are always for free.... Im now on version 19 (the Beta is just released, but for me very stable).

No more monthly fees, yeah baby
 
I'm a video noob so I'll take your advice if I really get into it. I'm happy posting straight to YouTube unedited for now and there are simple crop tools I have never used :)
 
Let me try to explain a little better what the YouTuber did. First he is not changing to any APS-C mode. He is running open gate full frame video. Then he is using the firmware 2.0 High E-Stabilization mode, which has a big crop. We don't know what that crop is, but it is not APS-C. The pixel output is still the same as full frame open gate, so somehow Panasonic extrapolates that crop back up the same pixel outout as with E-stabilization turned off. Then the YouTuber put on a Super 35 lens and discovered that with E-Stabilization on High the crop is enough he does not get vignetting.

Super 35 lenses fill more than just an APS-C frame. (Maybe not by much, maybe a lot, it depends on the lens.) In this case the lenses he used filled the area of the High E-Stabilization crop. So it is not correct to make a calculation of what the YouTuber is doing to say he went from full frame to APS-C. Instead he is going from full frame to the High E-Stabilization crop area.

A few comments. We already have E-Stabilization on the S5II, and it has some crop. It just not as much we will have available with firmware 2.0. From time to time I use Sony APS-C lenses on my full frame A1. I can see exactly what circle the lens covers. It varies by lens, and for zooms it varies by focal length. Sometimes the area is pretty large, sometimes smaller. But it always more than large enough to fit within the APS-C frame size. Also, I have the G9II, and it has the High E-Stabilization mode we will get with the S5II with firmware 2.0. Same thing, it has quite a bit of crop, and it still outputs the same pixel width and height of the selected format, up to open gate, so the camera needs to extrapolate back up to that size.

With High E-Stabilization on the S5II there could be some compromise in video quality. But with open gate I always take it back down to 4K for delivery anyway, so I'm not expecting much effect. It will be interesting to see how it goes.
 
CharlesH said:
We already have E-Stabilization on the S5II, and it has some crop. It just not as much we will have available with firmware 2.0
Click to expand...
Make that firmware 3.0 for the S5II. I was thinking about my S5IIx where will happen at firmware 2.0.
 
The strange thing is...
The crop is made so that in the shaking, sometimes it will take pixels from the top, sometimes from the bottom, sometimes from the extreme left, sometimes extreme right.
The special sauce is that it will apply distortion correction to those pixels to put them into the recorded frame.

But the APSC lenses have vigneting, i.e. some of those extremes will be dark. It will not show if the shaking is not too extreme, but if it is, weird (coming and going) dark edges will appear (and ruin the shot).

It is still useful because some APSC lenses have little FF vignette, or have it at some focal lengths only (like the sigmas 1.7!).
The "open gate" in this case is true in the sense that the sensor must be fully read out to grab the stable frames. But the output will be just re-scaled from the pixels available in 1.4 crop (around 13 Mpix). No miracles.

Still quite a fun workaround. I wonder how those sigmas work in this mode with the adapter.

BTW, did the update not come today? Not there yet...
 
I understand the update comes tomorrow, 5am est, or ronight 11pm edt
 
So that's midday for me here in Sydney which is GMT+10.
 
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