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News Sigma BF

Johnnie from cined.com is in CP+ in Japan and could play a bit with the Sigma BF. He says that it is a very heavy camera, bigger than it seems, that the edges are very sharp (!?) and that it could be used as a weapon hahaha :D:D

He says also that is a the perfect Sigma "lifestyle camera". Almost every brand has a "lifestyle camera":

Nikon: Zf
OM Systems: OM3
Lumix: S9
Fujifilm: X100VI
Sony: A7CR
Leica: Q3 (all of Leicas are lifestyle cameras)
Canon: ???????

My lifestyle camera is the Nikon Df... in 2025 (!?)
 
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xaviergut said:
the edges are very sharp (!?)
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I wonder how well that'll stand up to regular use. I've been using Apple MacBook Pro's for about 12 years now and a personal frustration is that it's a bit too easy to ding the sharp edges: I did this to my current 2021 version simply by knocking it slightly as I picked up my iPad that was connected to it by USB while debugging an app. It'd really bug me to have a camera with chewed up edges...

I'm also wondering what the arrival of the BF means for the fp series? I'm presuming they'll be discontinued in due course since they've never sold well, but I'm going to be sad about that because no other camera I've owned can match my fp L in terms of pure image quality and beautiful colour.
 
xaviergut said:
Johnnie from cined.com is in CP+ in Japan and could play a bit with the Sigma BF. He says that it is a very heavy camera, bigger than it seems, that the edges are very sharp (!?) and that it could be used as a weapon hahaha :D:D
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Heh. Yeah, I expected it to feel pretty dense, given the solid metal unibody; did he say whether it just felt dense, or did the weight drag on your arm after a while? This has unfortunately become a significant point for me of late. ;_; The sharp edges also sound like a concern.

Did he say anything about the rear screen? I said it’d take a quantum leap to make it usable for me, but maybe they pulled it off…

xaviergut said:
He says also that is a the perfect Sigma "lifestyle camera". Almost every brand has a "lifestyle camera":
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Well, there are lifestyle cameras and there are “lifestyle cameras”. ^^;;

The S9 has the small stylish body, but it also has the LUTs and fast posting workflow.

The X100 line has the retro film styling, but it also has the focus on a manual retro control setup for those who want it.

The A7CR has a compact body, and… well, I wasn’t that impressed with the ergonomics when I played with one. (Frankly, I don’t find it all that stylish either.)

The OM3 is stylish, but I also like the size, the stacked sensor, and it looks like they didn’t skimp on the controls. But I’d still want to play with one to see if the ergonomics work.

The Zf I don’t know enough about to say whether the style is more than skin-deep.

Not touching the Leica argument. ^^;;
 
AlanC said:
According to Petapixel, Sigma can make just 9 BF's a day since it takes 7 hours for the CNC machine to mill the casing from a single block of aluminium:
https://petapixel.com/2025/02/25/sigma-can-make-just-nine-bf-cameras-a-day/

So there are never going to be many of them.
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Um, yeah. ^^;;;;;;

Apple makes its laptop cases the same way, and they make a lot more than 9 per day. And the numbers in the article don't add up; they cited needing six "new" CNC machines operating in pairs, but that should give you an even number of cameras, not an odd number like 9. If they had three already, for nine machines total, that would give 9 in seven hours - but they could do one run during business hours, then start a second run to go overnight, for 18 a day... all of which is not trying to predict a specific number for how many they can actually make, but to point out the numbers they have given don't seem to go together.

If it is a low-volume product, though, that at least makes some sense of the dilemma I see in the BF's market positioning. As I said above, the interface and style suggest they're marketing it towards casual and non-photographers, but they typically don't pay that much for a camera; the price suggests they're aiming it at photographers serious enough to pay $2000, but they typically don't like simplified interfaces. The overlap between the sets is pretty small... but if Sigma never intended it to be a high-volume product, then that's not a big problem.

Still makes me wonder what they have in mind for the BF, if was always supposed to be low-volume. Prestige halo product? Interface prototype for a higher-volume model coming later? Doesn't seem like a big money-maker in itself...
 
Travis Butler said:
Um, yeah. ^^;;;;;;

Apple makes its laptop cases the same way, and they make a lot more than 9 per day. And the numbers in the article don't add up; they cited needing six "new" CNC machines operating in pairs, but that should give you an even number of cameras, not an odd number like 9. If they had three already, for nine machines total, that would give 9 in seven hours - but they could do one run during business hours, then start a second run to go overnight, for 18 a day... all of which is not trying to predict a specific number for how many they can actually make, but to point out the numbers they have given don't seem to go together.
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Not so odd.

Probably takes two kinds of CNC to finish all the varying types of cuts that need to be made. The raw block starts on one, and then gets moved to the second, where it is finished.

So you have three pairs of machines.

I takes 7 hours per pair to create a casing. So one pair of machines can make about 3 casings a day.

Time 3 pair of machines, you get 9 casings a day.

Again, it can be scaled up, but I can understand why they want to keep it in-house initially, which means keeping the machine count low in order to reduce investment costs.

Travis Butler said:
If it is a low-volume product, though, that at least makes some sense of the dilemma I see in the BF's market positioning. As I said above, the interface and style suggest they're marketing it towards casual and non-photographers, but they typically don't pay that much for a camera; the price suggests they're aiming it at photographers serious enough to pay $2000, but they typically don't like simplified interfaces. The overlap between the sets is pretty small... but if Sigma never intended it to be a high-volume product, then that's not a big problem.

Still makes me wonder what they have in mind for the BF, if was always supposed to be low-volume. Prestige halo product? Interface prototype for a higher-volume model coming later? Doesn't seem like a big money-maker in itself...
Click to expand...
 
AlanC said:
Sigma can make just 9 BF's a day since it takes 7 hours for the CNC machine to mill the casing from a single block of aluminium:
Click to expand...
AlanC said:
So there are never going to be many of them.
Click to expand...
Japan is full of good CNC machines. There is plenty of capacity in the country - for hire.
 
GeorgeHudetz said:
Again, it can be scaled up, but I can understand why they want to keep it in-house initially, which means keeping the machine count low in order to reduce investment costs.
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This is Japan, a country built on relationships and trust. There should be lots of CNC capacity with trusted suppliers if they need to scale up. Most production tooling in Japan is done by outside vendors.
 
Travis Butler said:
If it is a low-volume product, though, that at least makes some sense of the dilemma I see in the BF's market positioning. As I said above, the interface and style suggest they're marketing it towards casual and non-photographers, but they typically don't pay that much for a camera; the price suggests they're aiming it at photographers serious enough to pay $2000
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I don't think it is. Casual and non-photographers are just going to use their phones, and not worry about aperture, shutter speed, changing lenses and so on. I think it's aimed more at well heeled enthusiasts who want to take something quite stylish and modern out to dinner with them, when travelling, and so on. Rather than some black, vintage looking relic from the past.
 
CharlesH said:
This is Japan, a country built on relationships and trust. There should be lots of CNC capacity with trusted suppliers if they need to scale up. Most production tooling in Japan is done by outside vendors.
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I wouldn't think so, in Japan. I think you'd more than likely have to do an Apple, and go to China for that. To have large numbers of $300,000? machines just sitting idle would be economic suicide.
 
Markuswelder said:
I wouldn't think so, in Japan. I think you'd more than likely have to do an Apple, and go to China for that. To have large numbers of $300,000? machines just sitting idle would be economic suicide.
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I've been to lots of these shops in Japan, so I know the situation. The machines don't sit idle, you have to schedule them, like anything else in the production world. And yes, much of that work has moved to China so there is less in Japan. Bf production would be a really small job compared to most of what these shops do.
 
CharlesH said:
I've been to lots of these shops in Japan, so I know the situation. The machines don't sit idle, you have to schedule them, like anything else in the production world. And yes, much of that work has moved to China so there is less in Japan. Bf production would be a really small job compared to most of what these shops do.
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The very fact that they haven't either invested in more manufacturing equipment, or scheduled production from outside sources I think tells us of their expectations of sales volume.
 
CharlesH said:
Japan is full of good CNC machines. There is plenty of capacity in the country - for hire.
Click to expand...

In one previous interview Kazuto Yamaki mentioned the production of the all-metal i-series lenses is significantly more costly than their more usual lens construction but, because they make all the high precision parts in-house, it's practical for them to build a range of lenses that way.

https://www.imaging-resource.com/ne...ew-2022-i-series-lenses-foveon-update-16-28mm
Note the photo of the ranks of CNC machines.

I wonder how practical, in terms of costs, it'd be for them to out-source the production of the BF body? I can't see it being cheap to tie up someone else's CNC machine for 9 hours for a single part. I'm guessing they regard the BF in much the same way as the two recent astro lenses (14/1.4 and 15/1.4 fisheye): they know they won't sell a lot of them but, because of their in-house manufacturing capabilities, it's possible (and presumably worthwhile) for them to make such products.
 
AlanC said:
I wonder how practical, in terms of costs, it'd be for them to out-source the production of the BF body?
Click to expand...

Kazuto Yamaki would never outsource a product line for two reasons.

First, you become dependent on others. History has shown that this could be a bad decision and can lut you in difficult situations. Not only with the current tarif discussions, but also quality control etc. pp. Remember, Sigma wants to be the new Zeiss or Leica level lens manufacturer.

Second, Sigma is a family owned japanese company. This mean tradition and japanese culture is very, very important. Kazuto Yamaki treat his employees a lot better than other CEOs. Employees are not just numbers for him. This is more like a big family. He always will rather create a new job in Japan in his own factory than save some USD to outsource a production.

The Sigma BF does not need to become a best seller. Of course it shall recover the costs and shall bring some profit. But the business model of Sigma is different to Canon, Nikon et alii. Sigma makes its money with lenses for all kind of mounts.

As Kazuto Yamaki said in the interview: There are tons of choices for Bayer cameras, small and big. For Sigma, it does not make sense to create a "me too" product.

If Sigma makes a camera, it has to be significantly different to other cameras. In the past this was guaranteed thanks to the Foveon sensor. If Sigma makes a camera with Bayer sensor, it has to be very different to other Bayer cameras. The Sigma fp and fpL are very different and the Sigma BF is extremely different. Daumenhoch

I wonder how the sport/wildlife camera he mentioned has to be, so that it differs enough from others. Maybe it is not possibe to make it that much different.
 
Markuswelder said:
I don't think it is. Casual and non-photographers are just going to use their phones, and not worry about aperture, shutter speed, changing lenses and so on. I think it's aimed more at well heeled enthusiasts who want to take something quite stylish and modern out to dinner with them, when travelling, and so on. Rather than some black, vintage looking relic from the past.
Click to expand...
IIRC, didn’t they specifically mention ‘smartphone shooters who want something more’ in their initial announcement? Or am I conflating that with the first round of commentary on it?
 
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