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Petapixel chat on the SL3s and L mount’s future

Gordon Laing does the same reviews, same photos of seagulls and Brighton pier just rinse repeat with different gear doing the usual vanilla tests, and a mention of bokeh etc.

Most YouTubers have a repeat formula so no wonder you're sick of it :p The Ansel Adams documentaries are good to watch. He would love today's gear but his gear got the most skill out of him. He's no whinger either :D
Thanks Oíche.

I've subscribed to a small number of YouTubers and am working through their content. One that I quite like is James Popsys who is based in Wales.
 
I think if Panasonic release a Halo product, it will be more video oriented. Much like the GH7 in m4/3 land. This is not a bad thing, as a lot of video wants and needs translate very nicely to stills. High dynamic range, low rolling shutter, and so on. Pretty sure Panasonic knows that taking on Canon, Nikon and Sony in sports/wildlife/high speed action type photography is a fool's errand at this stage of the game. I suspect they're using the lower tier product to fund future higher end gear, as well as use it as a bit of a rolling test bed.
 
I’m going to say a few words of defence for the gear reviewers. I think most are decent people, genuinely trying to analyse and compare the products available. They take different approaches, some technical, some more “experiential”; and some bring more of their own personality and biases to their work than others. But in my view, it takes all types. We need to decide what we listen to and what we don’t.

For me, I think Gordon Laing, Chris Nichols/Jordan Drake, Richard Wong, and Richard Butler are amongst the best. I used to also like Steve Huff, but he’s gone into the HiFi waffle-sphere now. I’ve often found the Northrops just annoying, and Chris Gampat so unpredictable that his views would change seemingly by the minute. But I think they all bring a perspective that’s worth listening to.
 
I’m going to say a few words of defence for the gear reviewers. I think most are decent people, genuinely trying to analyse and compare the products available. They take different approaches, some technical, some more “experiential”; and some bring more of their own personality and biases to their work than others. But in my view, it takes all types. We need to decide what we listen to and what we don’t.

For me, I think Gordon Laing, Chris Nichols/Jordan Drake, Richard Wong, and Richard Butler are amongst the best. I used to also like Steve Huff, but he’s gone into the HiFi waffle-sphere now. I’ve often found the Northrops just annoying, and Chris Gampat so unpredictable that his views would change seemingly by the minute. But I think they all bring a perspective that’s worth listening to.

Richard Wong's reviews are the gold standard for me. Detailed and precise, honest and objective. I very much appreciate his work.
 
I agree that the videos of Richard are very good and informative.

I think also that we need more videos like this one about how to use the Lumix AF much better:

 
Yes, and this spells trouble for sites like PetaPixel and DPR because they will run out of meaningful content. Everything they do is about gear/specifications and not really about photography itself.

I guess that's what we're already seeing. Amazon got rid of DPR and DPR is a shell of its former self. And there is a concentration on diminishing enhancements in products, and the reviewers are trying to make these things seem more important than they are to have something to talk about.

I've all but given up watching and reading gear reviews for this reason. Reading and watching content about photography is way more meaningful.

I think that in addition to analysis on gear and comparisons on specs, etc. Maybe we could create a directory of known or lesser known photographers/videographers who use L-Mount cameras and lenses to create stuff and serve as inspiration for other L-Mount users.

I just want to share 1 that is not that famous in YT:

Lisa Frost, Australian landscape photographer: https://www.youtube.com/@LisaFrostPhoto
 
I agree that the videos of Richard are very good and informative.

I think also that we need more videos like this one about how to use the Lumix AF much better:


I watched this video today while having lunch at work. It is a great concise explainer on video!
 
Maybe we could create a directory of known or lesser known photographers/videographers who use L-Mount cameras and lenses to create stuff and serve as inspiration for other L-Mount users.

I'm not sure about the "lesser known" bit, but one photographer I came across while looking for sample images from the Sigma fp L was Sigma's Italian ambassador, Marco Dadone:

https://www.marcodadofoto.com

He has a series of posts on his blog with photos taken using the fp L and the i-series lenses:

Little Venice
The sleeping boats
Valensole (with the 65/2)

These played a considerable role in convincing me to buy the fp L and i-series lenses.
 
The problems with this podcast once I found the time to listen to it:

1. The much-repeated nonsense that Panasonic Lumix S cameras are only really good for video. I shoot almost no video and when I looked into all available FFM systems the S5 was the stand-out for providing the best quality and range of features for photography for anything close to it's price. I believe that's still the case now with the mark II.

2. The, again, much-repeated nonsense suggestion that the older DFD AF system in the original S cameras is very poor and not valid for a lot of types of photography. It works just fine for everything except fast-moving subjects, which means it works just fine for around 90% of photography. I'm sure the newer phase detect AF is better and faster but the AF of the original S5 is just fine for me and would be for most people.

3. I own a grand total of eight native L-mount lenses, three Panasonic and five Sigma, and had no problem at all in finding them in stock here in Spain when I bought them. For the 90mm my usual supplier (at the time) didn't have any and said they wouldn't get any for a couple of months so I bought one from somewhere else, but that's it. Do people really need a lens in their hand that same day when they decide to buy?
 
The problems with this podcast once I found the time to listen to it:

1. The much-repeated nonsense that Panasonic Lumix S cameras are only really good for video. I shoot almost no video and when I looked into all available FFM systems the S5 was the stand-out for providing the best quality and range of features for photography for anything close to it's price. I believe that's still the case now with the mark II.
Agreed. All the Panasonic G and S cameras are absolutely great for photography. In truth, as Jordan Drake explicitly said in the YT video mentioned in the OP, features that are good for video are generally also good for photography, so there's no need to create a false dichotomy here.
2. The, again, much-repeated nonsense suggestion that the older DFD AF system in the original S cameras is very poor and not valid for a lot of types of photography. It works just fine for everything except fast-moving subjects, which means it works just fine for around 90% of photography. I'm sure the newer phase detect AF is better and faster but the AF of the original S5 is just fine for me and would be for most people.
Also agreed. But I don't take photos of weddings, sports, birds in flight etc. People who do these things say that the Panasonic DfD is significantly worse than competing systems.
3. I own a grand total of eight native L-mount lenses, three Panasonic and five Sigma, and had no problem at all in finding them in stock here in Spain when I bought them. For the 90mm my usual supplier (at the time) didn't have any and said they wouldn't get any for a couple of months so I bought one from somewhere else, but that's it. Do people really need a lens in their hand that same day when they decide to buy?
I think their point was that the physical stores didn't have certain L-mount lenses in stock at that location, whereas similar/same lenses in Sony E were in stock. That's absolutely no surprise since 4% market share vs 40% means you'll seel 10x the number of Sony E lenses to L. If you were in charge of stock at one of these stores you'd come to the same conclusion.
 
I'm not sure about the "lesser known" bit, but one photographer I came across while looking for sample images from the Sigma fp L was Sigma's Italian ambassador, Marco Dadone:

https://www.marcodadofoto.com

He has a series of posts on his blog with photos taken using the fp L and the i-series lenses:

Little Venice
The sleeping boats
Valensole (with the 65/2)

These played a considerable role in convincing me to buy the fp L and i-series lenses.
Excellent!! Thank you! I did not know him.
 
...
Also agreed. But I don't take photos of weddings, sports, birds in flight etc. People who do these things say that the Panasonic DfD is significantly worse than competing systems.

...

I don't do birds in flights, but I have tried it a little bit and it worked. Maybe not highest standards, but it worked. I didn't compare it to Sony etc.

However I have done a lot of people shootings and even somee weddings with a Lumix S5 and a Sony A7III and I have to disagree. For those applications, DFD works equally good as the Sonys. Also in every test I have read and seen, for people photography (weddings isn't anything else) DFD camera's are absolutely up to the task and even beat some pdaf cameras, like the Z6II some Fuji's.
 
I found this article earlier today (from Oct last year):


This point made me sit up and think:

1737585444255.png

This is a great example of how the lack of an S1ii or a published roadmap is leading to ongoing questions about the future of the system. I'm beginning to think that the S1 line might indeed be dead. The general reason for not announcing a new product is that it kills sales of the product it's replacing (the Osborne effect). But the S1 has been dead as a sales proposition for at least a year, and maybe longer. A roadmap announcement for a new S1 would not damage Panasonic's sales. In fact, it would help build confidence in the system and avoid negative speculation like the above; it would also perhaps cause potential system switchers to press the pause button.

Just what is going on at Lumix? I think it's entirely possible that they are leaving the high-end bodies to Leica.
 
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Just what is going on at Lumix? I think it's entirely possible that they are leaving the high-end bodies to Leica
Stills perhaps, as I wrote earlier, I suspect that their high end bodies may be more video or hybrid oriented. Going back to what they know best
 
Stills perhaps, as I wrote earlier, I suspect that their high end bodies may be more video or hybrid oriented. Going back to what they know best
But a good video camera released in 2025 will need to do 8k and not suffer from rolling shutter. It'll also need top-class AF. That means a 33Mp + stacked sensor with PDAF and fancy subject-recognition. Any such camera would also make a great stills camera.

I'm really beginning to think that Panasonic have done a soft-exit in high-end L-mount.
 
Just what is going on at Lumix?

Nobody except Panasonic knows the real answer to this. We can only speculate.

First, the data of this article is wrong. The S1R and S1 were available earliest March 2019, if not later. People often interprete the press announcement of the LMount alliance with the date of product availability. Therfore it was rather 5 years than 6 years at the time of writing of that article.

Second, we tend to forget often, what kind of macro environment we had for a couple of years. We had a worldwide pandemic, a global shut down and a massive problem in the supply channel. AND nobody wanted to buy photo gear because nobody was allowed to travel. It would be naiv to expect normal product cycles in that environment.

Even Nikon did not do anything for years. Look at Z6, Z6ii (more cosmetic) and now many years later the Z6iii. A Z7iii is still not in sight.

I am sure that neither at Panasonic, nor at Nikon the delays would have been so long without Corona and all its consequences.

I have not read the whole article, but the summary directs into the wrong interpretation IMHO. These articles only cause panic because they do not put the facts into the bigger picture. The whole industry had problems and delays. Of course the ones with the lower market share have to be more cautious with new models. Look at Pentax/Ricoh or at Hasselblad.

So do not get stressed by these kind of articles. There will always be articles like that. Remember how often MFT's death was announced by youtubers.

There are reasona for these delays for sure. The Pandemic is only one of them but not the only one. Could be a contract between Leica and Panasonic, could be problems with AF improvements, you name it...

But for sure it is not the plan to give up the LMount. Panasonic is way too big to switch back and forth with such a commitment within only 6-10 years.

Look at Samsung. For Samsung and its MLU system this was different. They were alone. No alliance. They had to prioritize their R&D efforts. Either MLU photography or Smartphone photography. But they could not do both at the same time and be among the best in both worlds (the Samsung MLU were really good). Therefore Samsung decided to close again its MLU business after only a few years, because the could earn a lot more money with smartphones.

But for the L-Mount alliance this is different. They achieved already in only 6 years to have a similar sometimes even better lens line than the since decades established brands Nikon or Canon.

You do not do all this effort to say goodby afterwards. With the new AF and the S5ii and S9, they now get more and more attention. High end will follow for sure.

The real threat is the alliance in itself. The main problem of the L-Mount alliance is the same as the MFT alliance: It is a nightmare for the marketing.

You have 3 (MFT 2) founders and everyone is on its own ego trip. Look at the official L-Mount.com website. They even donit have all products listed there and there is no support/information contact for ALL alliance members in one person. No costumer will contact 3 or 10 companies to collect all necessary information together. They just go to Nikon. Lost sales.

It is a lot harder to "market" an alliance of 3 different companies with different target groups than if you would be one company only. But it is possible, if there is a will. Since 6 years, there is no will. I learned it the hard way in many presentations and discussions with these companies.

It is 10x easier to do marketing for Nikon, Canon, Sony or Fuji than for the "LMount alliance" or for "MFT". Hundred of thousands of € are wasted because they do not have a united marketing strategy.

New buyers compare i.e. Nikon only vs. Leica or Nikon vs. Panasonic or Nikon vs. Sigma, but never Nikon vs. "L-Mount".

As long as the Alliance does not change its marketing behaviour, this will not improve and they will never ever have the chance to get close to the maket share of others.

This is the same as with Geopolitics. Europe has way more people than i.e. the USA. Europe is a huge economic power. But the world sees Europe only as a collection of meaningless mini-states.

Why? Because the Europeans are not able/willing to speak with one voice. Therefore Europe makes itself a lot weaker than it should be in reality, because of its wrong attitude/ behaviour.

The same happens with L-Mount & MFT.
 
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But a good video camera released in 2025 will need to do 8k and not suffer from rolling shutter. It'll also need top-class AF. That means a 33Mp + stacked sensor with PDAF and fancy subject-recognition. Any such camera would also make a great stills camera.

I'm really beginning to think that Panasonic have done a soft-exit in high-end L-mount.
Exactly. I reckon they might have looked at the GH6 to GH7 debacle, and have decided to take their time with a full frame version.
 
Just what is going on at Lumix?
There have been so many rumors about a high end Lumix camera that people have started thinking of this as a fact, that it is coming and coming soon. The fact is we don't know what Panasonic is planning, or what might be coming. When the fantastic camera of the rumors doesn't happen, for some this means doom and gloom for Lumix. I try to not get wrapped up in the rumors, or to spend time worrying about Panasonic's market share or the fate of Lumix. The S5II and S5IIx cameras are excellent and the L-Mount lenses are excellent, and I'd rather just use these and leave the worrying to the worriers. And Panasonic will be just fine.
 
Charles, you wrote that more eloquently than what I would have said and I agree 100%

It's Lumix, not Pentax where I came from but they make/made yesterday's tech and still sold mechanical screw-driven lenses. They are in dire straits even buying the last discontinued K3iii in stock and zero replacement... Now Lumix are hardly in this same pickle are they?

Some doom users who started with S1R or pro bodies obviously want to maintain a level of prestige in Lumix and not let it become a next level bridge camera brand, I don't want that either BTW. Maybe they are waiting to do something magnificently unique with S1Rii etc. Z04 Discosmilie I think the Petapixel drama fed a lot of the narrative on here, it was no coincidence seeing it was posted.

It rains equipment here, Pentax was a desert and high hopes.

Look at latest firmware update, it's like what Apple do. S5ii on way to being their most popular camera, may as well include X model as they are the same. That doesn't look like a company potentially on the ropes soon. Daumenhoch
 
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