No rumors about a Sigma DGN DN 28/2.0 or a rangefinder style Lumix camera or a light tele zoom

[dirk]

Hi all,

this is more like a midterm rant from me. It is end of July 2023 now and like many others, I am sitting here and thinking about what to bring with me into the next family vacation in a few weeks.

I would love to bring my Lumix S5II with some lenses with me, but this takes too much space (the hotel safe will be tiny). Additionally I only have the Lumix 70-300mm zoom, but need up to 600mm for my son while he is surfing.

It is such a pity. The problem with the tele zoom is easily solved with MFT. My GX9 plus a 70-300 zoom will cover this. I can live with that. Full frame tele zoom up to 600mm would be too big and too heavy anyway.

But for the rest, for street shooting and family pics, I would love to have a Lumix GX9 like body also in L-Mount and a Sigma i-series DG DN 28/2.0 or F2.8 on it.

It is kind of frustrating if you see, how good Panasonic is able to make these kind of rangefinder style bodies for MFT, but does not offer it in L-Mount. Since 2018 no attempt. It would be so easy. Just an entry level one with 24MP, 3.6MP viewfinder and tilting screen would be already enough and perfect for this target group. No need for complicated video feature.

Same for my wish of a Sigma i-series 28mm FFL.

We have now 3 different versions of a 35mm in L-Mount from Sigma alone. One 35mm from Panasonic and 2 from Leica. That makes a total of 6 (!) different 35mm FFL for the L-Mount, not counting the third party products with L-Mount with 35mm from non-alliance partners. Bear in mind Sigma offers even in 24mm two different alternatives in L-Mount.

But for 28mm, there is nothing from Sigma or Panasonic. Leica offers a APO-Summicron-SL 1:2/28 ASPH. That weights 700g, has a 67mm filter thread and costs 5.000.-€. Not really what I wanted to have. Neither that price tag, nor that size and weight.

A Leica Q3 with a fixed 28/1.7 lens costs around 6.000€ is neither really small nor light weight and even if you would eat drugs at lunch and would like to buy it at that price, you do not get it anywhere.

It is disappointing that there is no Sigma i-series 28mm available yet. And it is disappointing that there is no rangefinder style Lumix camera available. Two great opportunities for both manufacturers to earn a lot of money as long as there is no real alternative out there for L-Mount users. The Sigma fp/fpL is still too expensive to buy it just to test wether I could live without a viewfinder and electronic shutter only.

It seems I end up again with my Google Pixel 7 Pro and my 2 Ricoh GRs. The GRIII and GRIIIx. Both great cameras, small, light, great image quality. APS-C sensor size, but I am fine with that.

The L-Mount alliance is missing the opportunity to fill important gaps in their line up. They are risking, that their customers get used to alternatives, which are not bad at all. The more you get used to these alternatives, the less likely it will be in the future, that you will try to buy similar products in L-mount.

Fuji is standing already across the street with its X-Pro 3 and probably soon X-Pro4 and the excellent 18/1.4 lens and is just waiting for the frustrated L-Mount users of the future.

I hope that the L-Mount alliance wakes up and starts to fight in the last months of 2023 to keep old customers and and also get new ones.

 

[Jan.Wedekind]

I also hope they will recover their “X” line of rangefinder styled cameras for both L Mount and M43.

Then again, the S5 plus kit lens isn’t very large tbh. It’s also not more expensive than two GRs.

I end up with three options for travel:
- need smallest: just m43 (OM-1 only now cut still) and just zooms plus maaaaybe one prime. As long as it fits in one camera cube
- size and weight no big issue: m43 for long Tele, S1 with primes for all else
- I only take L-Mount including the giant 150-600

Sometimes I also bring my old GX7 with a zoom instead of the huge S1 as a second body.

I don’t care much about 28mm tbh, not my favorite focal range. But I would argue that you don’t lose all that much by taking a 24 and cropping in? Or there is always the small 28-70 f2.8?

In any case, my wish/dream lists:
- SX body and new GX body (double yay!) and a new S1 that is a bit smaller and a lot lighter (triple yay!)
- or at least a new GX with PDAF and a new S1
- new S1

My guess is only the latter will happen now and maybe a G9ii on m43 with PDAF. For m43, the market just seems to be too small I guess and for L-Mount, maybe they have a deal with Leica to stay away from that style. Shame though.

 

[xaviergut]

maybe they have a deal with Leica to stay away from that style

That is exactly what I was thinking... It is like they have some kind of agreement: Lumix more video oriented (S1H, S1, S5, S5II, S5IIx) , Leica more photo oriented... and the rangefinder style camera (Q, Q2 and Q3) in full frame. I don´t have the information, but could be...

 

[AlanC]

Sean Robinson of Lumix Live keeps getting asked if Panasonic will make a rangefinder style body and he keeps replying “No, they don’t sell”.

And then there’s Fuji: The X-Pro1 was the first of the X series, followed by the X-T1. The X-T series is now up to version 5, while the X-Pro series is on Version 3. And the X-Pro3 lost the dual magnification viewfinder of the previous cameras: it uses the X100’s mechanism. That could, perhaps, suggest they genuinely don’t sell as well as the SLR style cameras?

I would have bought a rangefinder style S-series camera in an instant if Panasonic had made one, but I got tired of waiting and bought a Sigma fp L instead. And I’m very happy with it. So a hypothetical future Panasonic rangefinder would have to be something quite exceptional to tempt me now.

 

[Jayneboo]

Hi all,

this is more like a midterm rant from me. It is end of July 2023 now and like many others, I am sitting here and thinking about what to bring with me into the next family vacation in a few weeks.

I would love to bring my Lumix S5II with some lenses with me, but this takes too much space (the hotel safe will be tiny). Additionally I only have the Lumix 70-300mm zoom, but need up to 600mm for my son while he is surfing.

It is such a pity. The problem with the tele zoom is easily solved with MFT. My GX9 plus a 70-300 zoom will cover this. I can live with that. Full frame tele zoom up to 600mm would be too big and too heavy anyway.

But for the rest, for street shooting and family pics, I would love to have a Lumix GX9 like body also in L-Mount and a Sigma i-series DG DN 28/2.0 or F2.8 on it.

It is kind of frustrating if you see, how good Panasonic is able to make these kind of rangefinder style bodies for MFT, but does not offer it in L-Mount. Since 2018 no attempt. It would be so easy. Just an entry level one with 24MP, 3.6MP viewfinder and tilting screen would be already enough and perfect for this target group. No need for complicated video feature.

Same for my wish of a Sigma i-series 28mm FFL.

We have now 3 different versions of a 35mm in L-Mount from Sigma alone. One 35mm from Panasonic and 2 from Leica. That makes a total of 6 (!) different 35mm FFL for the L-Mount, not counting the third party products with L-Mount with 35mm from non-alliance partners. Bear in mind Sigma offers even in 24mm two different alternatives in L-Mount.

But for 28mm, there is nothing from Sigma or Panasonic. Leica offers a APO-Summicron-SL 1:2/28 ASPH. That weights 700g, has a 67mm filter thread and costs 5.000.-€. Not really what I wanted to have. Neither that price tag, nor that size and weight.

A Leica Q3 with a fixed 28/1.7 lens costs around 6.000€ is neither really small nor light weight and even if you would eat drugs at lunch and would like to buy it at that price, you do not get it anywhere.

It is disappointing that there is no Sigma i-series 28mm available yet. And it is disappointing that there is no rangefinder style Lumix camera available. Two great opportunities for both manufacturers to earn a lot of money as long as there is no real alternative out there for L-Mount users. The Sigma fp/fpL is still too expensive to buy it just to test wether I could live without a viewfinder and electronic shutter only.

It seems I end up again with my Google Pixel 7 Pro and my 2 Ricoh GRs. The GRIII and GRIIIx. Both great cameras, small, light, great image quality. APS-C sensor size, but I am fine with that.

The L-Mount alliance is missing the opportunity to fill important gaps in their line up. They are risking, that their customers get used to alternatives, which are not bad at all. The more you get used to these alternatives, the less likely it will be in the future, that you will try to buy similar products in L-mount.

Fuji is standing already across the street with its X-Pro 3 and probably soon X-Pro4 and the excellent 18/1.4 lens and is just waiting for the frustrated L-Mount users of the future.

I hope that the L-Mount alliance wakes up and starts to fight in the last months of 2023 to keep old customers and and also get new ones.

Have you ever thought of trying the Leica CL, I know Leica have no dropped it but I've had one since launch and it's a great option for travel, the 18TL pancake give you (almost) a 28mm option and the Pan 70-300 gets more reach with the crop factor.

 

[Jan.Wedekind]

The ironic thing is that the X100 and the Leica Qs are selling like hot cakes. So it still surprises me that Lumix cannot cut a piece of that pie.

Hope they will try at least

 

[dirk]

The ironic thing is that the X100 and the Leica Qs are selling like hot cakes. So it still surprises me that Lumix cannot cut a piece of that pie.

exactly.

Have you ever thought of trying the Leica CL, I know Leica have no dropped it but I've had one since launch and it's a great option for travel, the 18TL pancake give you (almost) a 28mm option and the Pan 70-300 gets more reach with the crop factor.

I do not want to start with a third APS-C system. I have already Nikon Zfc and Fuji X.

And if I would like to commit more for APS-C, I would rather expand Fuji X,. The reason for this is that a conpany, which offers APS-C only will be always more motivated to be on the leading edge and fight for new customers than a company like i.e. Nikon, which has FF and APS-C on the same lens mount. Nikon's DX strategy over the last 15 years was a disaster and in Z mount, they repeat the same mistakes. Lesson learned. I now slowly get out of Nikon Z fullframe and APS-C completely.

But I was thinking already about Leica's CL lenses in combination with the Sigma fp L. With the crop factor I still have enough resolution for my use case and an ultra compact setup.

But prices still are too high for me to try this out. If it would be my only camera, than I would be willing to save up for it. But I currently have an X-Pro2 and if an X-Pro4 with the X-Pro2 DNA will be announced, I will probably buy that one plus a future successor of the Lumix GX9.

This will be then a lot of money. The launch of the dpreview alternative community forum dprforum.com was also a big investment and will burn part of my money regularly ober the next few years. My funds are limited. Therefore I have to be cautious on what I spend my money on.

But a CL18mm is definetly a long term option, if Sigma will not announce a small i-series 28mm lens this year.

 

[Jayneboo]

Yes I understand... I can see why you would chose Fuji for aps-c, I was a Fuji user for a long time but went to the CL simply because I have a collection of M mount lenses and it's a better platform for those. Leica have totally peed me off by dropping the CL, many users were hoping it would continue and bring IBIS and a slight increase in resolution, all the TL lenses are great performers, if overpriced, but used offers better value. I use them now on the FpL and the 18TL is a lovely walk around option, most of my TL lenses are now gone but I kept it and the 35TL, along with a couple of Sigma crop lenses the 18-50 and the 56 1.4, very happy with the performance and IQ on the FpL.

 

[dirk]

maybe they have a deal with Leica to stay away from that style. Shame though.

That would be a huge mistake. There are many potential buyers out there, who can not afford Leica prices. You push them to Fuji and Sony instead of seduce them into L-Mount.

Sean Robinson of Lumix Live keeps getting asked if Panasonic will make a rangefinder style body and he keeps replying “No, they don’t sell”.

That is not true and I see this only as an excuse.

This is not a question about quantities. It is a question about margins.

We know for sure that there is enough demand out there. Look at Fuji X100, Fuji X-Pro, Sony 7c, Leica Q, Leica M, Lumix GX9. They all sell in enough quantities to be profitable.

The L-Mount alliance has to become more realistic about their goals with the L-Mount.

I do not see a future for the L-Mount in sport photography. Competition like Canon, Nikon and Sony are too good and too established already in this segment.

So, it only can be in the "normal" photography. No brand can live from professionals alone. Therefore the main focus has to be always the enthusiast, the hobby photographer. Everybody else will use smartphones.

The enthusiast is willing to spend a lot of money in gear. It is his hobby. There is no need to justify the investment for him in general.

This enthusiast is willing to buy at higher prices. We have seen this over the last 4 years, when all brands increased significantly their prices and we were stil willing to pay it.

This enthusiast is often also interested to own more than one body and more than the statistical 2,3 lenses.

My conclusion is that if L-Mount wants to increase market share and wants to make more profit, they have to address the demand in niches, like rangefinder style cameras too.

At the moment they do only this "me too" strategy. They offer more or less the same use case as Canon and Nikon. Except Sigma with its fp/fp L.

Look at Sony. Look at the 7c. Fullframe, rangefinder style. Sony offers the while range from DSLR style to RF style. Fuji too.

It is time for the L-Mount to wake up and be more creative than the past 5 years. We have very good products already in the L-Mount. But if they settle on this, they risk that others jump into these niches or expand their market share in these niches.

Panasonic is very experienced with RF style cameras. They have the know how. There is no logical reason not to launch a RF style camera for L-Mount.

The decision makers are the problem. Not the demand.

 

[AlanC]

I do not see a future for the L-Mount in sport photography. Competition like Canon, Nikon and Sony are too good and too established already in this segment.

So, it only can be in the "normal" photography. No brand can live from professionals alone. Therefore the main focus has to be always the enthusiast, the hobby photographer. Everybody else will use smartphones.

From the DPReview interview with Yosuke Yamane back in March it appears that Panasonic intend to target the "content creator" market with hybrid cameras that are good for both stills and video:

While he agreed that 'there are many customers who only take still images, and a camera that meets those needs is necessary to a certain extent,' he didn't make it sound like Panasonic would be the company to address that need. 'The number of users who want to shoot not only still images but also videos has increased, and it has become the [driving force] of camera users. Lumix intends to provide value to as many people as possible, focusing on cameras that combine still images and video.'

But he also commented:

'I think the need for small, lightweight cameras that can be carried around all the time like smartphones will increase, especially among the younger generation.'

He wouldn't be drawn on whether this might result in a return of the GM series, but said we weren't the only people expressing an interest in a small, capable camera. 'The press in Japan ask the same thing,' he said, 'but for full-frame.'

A hint, perhaps?

 

[dirk]

A hint, perhaps?

At least a hope

If Panasonic wants to offer a significant smaller full frame camera than the S5, they need to use the rangefinder style. Just avoiding the bump on the top plate and a large grip will reduce the size significantly already.

I can understand that Panasonic is afraid to hurt their sales in MFT if they offer smaller bodies in L-Mount. But if they do not offer it, someone else will. You can not avoid that. IMHO it is smarter to hurt yourselves and have at least some profit than to watch others how they do it.

I can only speak for myself, but I would not quit MFT if Panasonic would offer something like the GX9 in fullframe. For me there is still the need for MFT in my use cases.

But I doubt that I would keep my S5II, if I would buy a RF style S5 type of camera. I would always prefer the RF body and tilting screen over DSLR shape with flip screen.

 

[AlanC]

I would always prefer the RF body and tilting screen over DSLR shape with flip screen.

So would I. I've had a long series of rangefinder style cameras: Panasonic GF1, GX7, GX8, GM1, Olympus E-P3, Fujifilm X-Pro1, X-Pro2 and Sigma fp L, and I'll always buy a camera in that format if I have the choice, even if it's more expensive than the DSLR style equivalent.

 

[dirk]

RF style bodies have a huge advantage over DSLR style bodies.

If you take pictures in the street or people/family, you do not cover your whole face with the camera.

This makes a big difference in the perception of the person you take a picture of. The "model" is more relaxed and it is easier to interact with that person.

If I make the same image of a person with an Lumix S5 and a Lumix GX9 (or Fuji X-Pro), the person will always look better on the image which was made with the RF style camera.

With professional models this is obviously different, but normal human beeings, who do not like to get captured, react this way in my experience.

 

[inspiredtimothy]

RF style bodies have a huge advantage over DSLR style bodies.

If you take pictures in the street or people/family, you do not cover your whole face with the camera.

This makes a big difference in the perception of the person you take a picture of. The "model" is more relaxed and it is easier to interact with that person.

If I make the same image of a person with an Lumix S5 and a Lumix GX9 (or Fuji X-Pro), the person will always look better on the image which was made with the RF style camera.

With professional models this is obviously different, but normal human beeings, who do not like to get captured, react this way in my experience.

That's very interesting, I had never thought of that. Obviously anecdotal evidence for this can be very useful but I would love to see some data on this topic.

 

[CharlesH]

A Leica Q3 with a fixed 28/1.7 lens costs around 6.000€ is neither really small nor light weight and even if you would eat drugs at lunch and would like to buy it at that price, you do not get it anywhere.

The Leica Q3 is tempting for the times you want a very good camera that is reasonably small and easy to carry around. One cost advantage is you won't be buying a bunch of lenses for it, so the price is a one time thing. But as you say, it is not really available, and I'd like something even smaller. I'm kind of tempted with the just released Sony A6700 for that small rangefinder style carry around camera; and with the kit lens it's quite a bit smaller and lighter than the Q3, and 1/4 the price. I've had Sony APS-C cameras in the past, but never thought they'd have one with separate aperture and shutter controls and with 10 bit video. I do wish Panasonic would release a small rangefinder style L mount camera, and an even smaller rangefinder style M43 camera. I would take one of each.

 

[AlanC]

That's very interesting, I had never thought of that. Obviously anecdotal evidence for this can be very useful but I would love to see some data on this topic.

I can't give you any hard data but my experience is the same as Dirk's: people react far more favourably to a smaller, rangefinder style camera. My Fujifilm X-Pro2, in particular, seems to get mistaken for a film camera, and occasionally people are curious enough to ask if it is - I guess it's like seeing a dinosaur...

 

[xaviergut]

I would buy immediately a rangefinder style mirrorless full frame camera with the specs and price of the S5...

 

[dirk]

That's very interesting, I had never thought of that. Obviously anecdotal evidence for this can be very useful but I would love to see some data on this topic.

I doubt that there will be statistical data available for this. But this is normal psychology and you can easily test it for yourself.

• Get in front of a big mirror, so you can see your whole body.
• Now take one after the other a shot of your mirror-image (full body) with a DSLR shape camera, with a RF style cameras and to make it even more obvious with an old medium format camera from the hip (like the waist level viewfinder of Rollei 6000/ Rolleiflex 2.8 and Hasselblad 500 etc).
• After that compare the images and how you react when seeing "the photographer" with the different cameras.

The more the face of the photographer is blocked, the more people who are not used to get photographed feel "naked"/ "under a magnifying glass"/ "uncomfortable".

The result is, that you will end up with more "frozen smilies" and unnatural face expressions in these shots the more the case of the photographer is blocked by the camera body. people on these photos tend to not look "relaxed".

For landscape or sport this is not important, but for people photography this can be the critical factor between a good or bad shot. The people themselves do not realize that they have a different face expression. Only if you ask and talk to them about this difference, they get aware of something they could not have described it earlier in their own words. It was just a feeling they were not aware of beforehand.

If you are more interested in this subject, you can search for books of Samy Molcho. He wrote a lot about it. This psychological behavior of human beings and the different behavior just because of a different postural change is used in business meetings very often. Small things like who is sitting on a higher chair, whether there are bottles of water between 2 people sitting in front of each other vs. the same bottles on the side, how you put your arms or hands, your legs under the table etc. pp. This all will result in a different unconscious psychological perception for both discussion partners. This will influence how the meeting will go and whether you will be able to indentify easier misundertandings or "barriers" the other person did not mention yet in that conversation.

This is also the reason why I would always prefer a tilting screen over an articulated screen. It is more like shooting with a wasit level viewfinder of a Hasselblad or Rolleiflex. You can ineract better with the people and the people look better, more natural on the final photo, because they see me more and this is like a normal situation they are used to in their daily life.

Here are some examples a quickly searched on the net. Not the best examples. The idea with the mirror will show the differences even better. But the difference is still obvious enough..

 

[dirk]

I do wish Panasonic would release a small rangefinder style L mount camera, and an even smaller rangefinder style M43 camera. I would take one of each.

me too.

 

[xaviergut]

By the way, there is a small issue about rangefinder style cameras that manufacturers do not take into account: it seems that they are designed for those people / photographers who are "right eye dominant". For people "left eye dominant" is more uncomfortable. As the viewfinder is located in the upper left corner of the camera these people cannot see with their right eye the scene they want to photograph. And this is a small disadvantage for these people... and an advantage in favor of SLR cameras.

Luckily I see much better with my right eye...