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Lumix S1Rii autofocus performance

dirk

LMF-Founder
Administrator
I came across this article at dpreview about the autofocus of the Lumix S1Rii


Quote:

The Panasonic S1RII features a revised version of the phase-detection AF system introduced with the S5II cameras. It can detect and track more subjects than the S5II supported at launch, and Panasonic promises it's both quicker to find focus and more tenacious in terms of tracking.

...

There's a twist, though: the S1RII can either be set to use its focus tracking system or it can be set to track a recognized subject but, unlike most modern cameras, these are separate functions. The upshot is that if you want to focus on a non-recognized subject for one shot, or the camera fails to find the subject it's supposed to recognize, you'll need to disengage the subject tracking: the S1RII will not fall back to its generic tracking system.

This is disappointing as the S5II has now gained the ability to detect all the same subjects as the S1RII, but its subject recognition is built on top of the generic tracking system, so the camera will fall back to tracking AF, making it more flexible.

...

Our experiences with the S1RII were distinctly mixed: when the AF system works, it can be very good, but overall, we found it to be appreciably less reliable than we've come to expect from the likes of Canon, Nikon and Sony cameras.

In our standard tracking test we found the S1RII had a tricky time of following the subject – it lost track of the subject on half of the runs we performed. The camera would typically lose the subject as the rate of approach changed as the target turns a corner.

Human detection did a better job but could still be prone to losing the subject mid-run (it did so in one of the four runs we conducted). This is consistent with our other usage of the camera: it can be very sticky once it's found a subject, but it doesn't always successfully find subjects, and it can lose track of them as you're shooting. The camera also appears to have struggled to judge subject distance consistently, resulting in some softness when the subject's approach speed varies.

Perhaps the most concerning behavior, though, was one we've seen in other recent Panasonic cameras, where tracking AF will fail to find something to focus on at all and will simply present a red flashing box and make no further attempt to focus. This is offputting enough to undermine our faith in the reliability of the camera, probably out of proportion to how often it occurs. Just knowing that the camera will sometimes fail to focus and make you wait a few moments is an unpleasant thought to have lingering in the back of your mind and not something we're used to encountering on a modern camera.



That does not sound good for action shots. Did anybody tried this with his S1Rii?
 
There's a twist, though: the S1RII can either be set to use its focus tracking system or it can be set to track a recognized subject but, unlike most modern cameras, these are separate functions. The upshot is that if you want to focus on a non-recognized subject for one shot, or the camera fails to find the subject it's supposed to recognize, you'll need to disengage the subject tracking: the S1RII will not fall back to its generic tracking system.

This is disappointing as the S5II has now gained the ability to detect all the same subjects as the S1RII, but its subject recognition is built on top of the generic tracking system, so the camera will fall back to tracking AF, making it more flexible.
I think this part is nonsense. The generic tracking has always been a part of Lumix cameras and it's completely separate from the defined subject detection tracking. The S5II is the same as far as I can tell.

That reviewer at DPR is new and not very experienced with cameras. He gets it wrong a lot of the time.
 
I think this part is nonsense.

First, there is some truth here. If you are in the tracking mode with the S1RM2 and you turn on Subject Detection, it will ONLY detect and track the selected subject types. (Unlike previous Lumix cameras.) But it detects and tracks the subject types like glue. I also have a state-of-the art Sony camera and if it is in both tracking and subject detection it can track non-subjects if no subjects are in view (like previous Lumix cameras).

The writer of that article has an unusual focusing mode where he combines tracking and subject detection and he wanted to track a cake and then have the focus jump to people when they came into the view. The S1RM2 won't do this, it won't track a cake with human detection on. This would work with my Sony; a distinction is that you hold the shutter button half down while tracking, and you would need to lift off the shutter button when there are people, let the camera detect a person, and then hold the shutter button half down to track the person. The S1RM2 only tracks the selected type of subjects. You wouldn't track the cake, you would get people into view, press the shutter button half down, and track a human. The S1RM2 is really solid in this mode.

The kindest thing I can say about the reviewer is he didn't learn how to operate the camera.
 
I read the comments section, things are getting utterly ridiculous. People complaining that they aren't getting optimum results using AFC when shooting LANDSCAPES. Yes, LANSCAPES. Because they can with a Sony. Really? Then go and buy a Sony right now, because you're going to be horribly disappointed that, shock, horror, that Panasonic camera you're holding, isn't a replica Sony.
We've seemingly reached peak incompetence, when you have to use AFC to shoot a landscape. I mean, when was the last time a landscape jumped up and ran away at 60 km/hr?
Or you're not bright enough how to sit down and figure out how your camera actually functions in certain modes. And then adjust your technique accordingly.
Are cameras today supposed to be able to actually read your mind, and not only that be able to actually predict your thinking in advance? Really?
 
PS -for the record, I have no issues accepting that perhaps the S1R2 AF is not quite up to maybe Canon and Sony standard, in certain scenarios. None at all. It's also about half the price in my country, and it WILL get better with some firmware updates. Not that I'm really interested in buying one by the way.
From what I can tell (I haven't used one, nor an I likely to) it just does things differently. And forumtographers today seem to not be able to cope, with different.
The amount of cr@p that was talked about the S series DFD is testament to that. If you read any of DPreviews writings, the S5 was a step back into the stone Age. Worse than my G9. But actually buying and owning/using both reveals the complete opposite. It's not a Sony. Or Canon. And I'm thankful, and at ease with that.
 
I read the comments section, things are getting utterly ridiculous. People complaining that they aren't getting optimum results using AFC when shooting LANDSCAPES. Yes, LANSCAPES. Because they can with a Sony. Really? Then go and buy a Sony right now, because you're going to be horribly disappointed that, shock, horror, that Panasonic camera you're holding, isn't a replica Sony.
We've seemingly reached peak incompetence, when you have to use AFC to shoot a landscape. I mean, when was the last time a landscape jumped up and ran away at 60 km/hr?
Or you're not bright enough how to sit down and figure out how your camera actually functions in certain modes. And then adjust your technique accordingly.
Are cameras today supposed to be able to actually read your mind, and not only that be able to actually predict your thinking in advance? Really?
I think this behaviour comes from the fact that in Sony, at least those I had, it was not immediate to change from AFC to AFS, so we used to settle for one mode only. But it is really just basic handling skills. I love the AFC-AFS-MF switch.
 
First, there is some truth here. If you are in the tracking mode with the S1RM2 and you turn on Subject Detection, it will ONLY detect and track the selected subject types. (Unlike previous Lumix cameras.) But it detects and tracks the subject types like glue.
I just got my S5II out to take a look and to my surprise I was able to activate subject detection within tracking mode. I didn’t realise that was possible.

When subject detection was introduced I assumed that it replaced tracking mode. I asked Sean on LUMIX Live last year about this and he said that with the advent of subject detection on LUMIX cameras, you wouldn’t use the older tracking mode as subject detection mode does a better job of tracking.

I just tried out both modes here at home with some YouTube train videos. The difference was stark. With subject detection mode, the camera detected trains anywhere in the frame and tracked them across the frame. With tracking mode enabled with train detection, the train was only detected when it touched the tracking area.

So for my purposes I don’t see the benefit of tracking mode.

I am intrigued that the S1RII operates differently.

I also have a state-of-the art Sony camera and if it is in both tracking and subject detection it can track non-subjects if no subjects are in view (like previous Lumix cameras).

The writer of that article has an unusual focusing mode where he combines tracking and subject detection and he wanted to track a cake and then have the focus jump to people when they came into the view. The S1RM2 won't do this, it won't track a cake with human detection on. This would work with my Sony; a distinction is that you hold the shutter button half down while tracking, and you would need to lift off the shutter button when there are people, let the camera detect a person, and then hold the shutter button half down to track the person. The S1RM2 only tracks the selected type of subjects. You wouldn't track the cake, you would get people into view, press the shutter button half down, and track a human. The S1RM2 is really solid in this mode.

The kindest thing I can say about the reviewer is he didn't learn how to operate the camera.
Yes, and he seems to view cameras only through the context of what Sony or Canon does. Which is typical for DPReview in general.
 
The other interesting aspect of the S1RII is that tracking mode is only available for when focusing is "approximate" (as per the manual). Which is to say, tracking is available in SH & H - where AF is listed as approximate - but is disabled for H+, where focusing is labeled as "normal" in the manual. So, it's possible that the AF will be less consistent when using tracking with SH & H, due to the "approximate" nature of the AF. Conversely, if you want the best possible AF (talking continuous AF here, obviously) you should be using H+ (which peaks at 9 or 10 FPS) but then you can't use tracking mode .

Its all quite a mess, to be honest. Panasonic really should try to simplify the approach they use in the menu system when it comes to burst shooting. I've read the Z8 manual, for example, it's much easier to navigate it's burst mode settings.

Anyway, I've made a table that attempts to capture the tradeoffs in terms of what you get, depending on the drive mode selected. I've not used the body enough yet to form an opinion on the reliability of AF-C in the S1RII.

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I just got my S5II out to take a look and to my surprise I was able to activate subject detection within tracking mode. I didn’t realise that was possible.
LOL, I had the EXACT same experience after reading that DPReview article. I had no idea tracking w/ subject detection was even a thing :D

When subject detection was introduced I assumed that it replaced tracking mode. I asked Sean on LUMIX Live last year about this and he said that with the advent of subject detection on LUMIX cameras, you wouldn’t use the older tracking mode as subject detection mode does a better job of tracking.
Can't say I've noticed a huge difference tbh.

I just tried out both modes here at home with some YouTube train videos. The difference was stark. With subject detection mode, the camera detected trains anywhere in the frame and tracked them across the frame. With tracking mode enabled with train detection, the train was only detected when it touched the tracking area.

So for my purposes I don’t see the benefit of tracking mode.

There definitely is one: with subject detection and area modes, the subject needs to stay within the area. If it leaves the area, the camera no longer focuses on the subject,. That leaves you in a pickle in some situations: if you have many subjects or you need a small area because of obstructions (e.g. a bird behind branches), you need a small area. But then it's easy to lose the subject again.

Not so with Tracking + Subject detection: you can take a small tracking selection box, point at the subject and then it will keep tracking the subject, no matter where it goes into the frame. I find this quite nice and I've been using that quite a bit not the S1Rii now.


I am intrigued that the S1RII operates differently.

I can only compare to the G9ii, which I believe behaves like the S5ii/S9? Some differences:
  • You can change the size of the tracking box on the S1Rii (not on the G9ii, it's fixed size)
  • The G9ii will (eventually) track whatever it finds if no subject is detected. The S1Rii will just focus like area focus but do so instantly
Tracking itself is ok-ish. Both quite often have trouble locking onto something if there are no clear edges or contrast.
Yes, and he seems to view cameras only through the context of what Sony or Canon does. Which is typical for DPReview in general.
I also found the particularly issue he complained about very easy to solve: I just mapped subject detection on/off to a button (AF-on in my case since I never ever use it). So if I want to switch between "normal" tracking and tracking+subject detection is literally one button click – et voila.

The other interesting aspect of the S1RII is that tracking mode is only available for when focusing is "approximate" (as per the manual). Which is to say, tracking is available in SH & H - where AF is listed as approximate - but is disabled for H+, where focusing is labeled as "normal" in the manual. So, it's possible that the AF will be less consistent when using tracking with SH & H, due to the "approximate" nature of the AF. Conversely, if you want the best possible AF (talking continuous AF here, obviously) you should be using H+ (which peaks at 9 or 10 FPS) but then you can't use tracking mode .

Its all quite a mess, to be honest. Panasonic really should try to simplify the approach they use in the menu system when it comes to burst shooting. I've read the Z8 manual, for example, it's much easier to navigate it's burst mode settings.
I agree, it's quite hard to grasp and not super duper clear from just using the camera. Loads of weird compromises:
  • H+ does "normal" focus (I assume "better"?) AND it does blackout free – but no tracking...
  • H does estimated AF with tracking but not blackout free
  • M does normal focus and tracking - but also not blackout free...
  • Why is there no 20 fps SH mode? The G9ii has 20 fps and 60 fps, the S1Rii only 40 fps as the single option....
One one hand, it's nice to have the option to choose the particular trade-offs you care about. On the other hand, it's super hard to remember.

Many thanks for your table, it's been quite useful the past 2w!

My impressions from the first ~2w on vacation so far:

  • Overall, I am quite happy with AF. Performance is very similar to the G9ii, which is to say more than good enough for me in 95% of cases
  • Very happy with subject detection on people. Would share some bursts but I don't like sharing photos of my kids. But below two examples from my doggie
  • It does lose frames in bursts every once in a while. I haven't paid enough attention to figuring out which combination of factors is better/worse for it because frankly it's more than good enough for me. Unscientifically speaking, I would guess 8/10 in perfect focus, 1/10 soft, 1/10 off. Which in practice means that I have a LOT of keepers in bursts, which makes culling almost annoying :)
  • I still have far/near shift mapped to the wheel top/down Fn buttons since it's still helpful to rack focus to the back/front to help the camera (been using the same setup since S1)
  • I have played briefly with the different Sets but to be honest, it never really made much difference to me in practice and I still find it ambiguous to understand what some settings in there mean
  • Not strictly AF related but hybrid zoom is absolutely awesome. It makes framing in camera so so much easier and nicer. I wished they would add this to the G9ii too (it got crop zoom but not hybrid zoom). With the S1Rii, I can basically get up to in-camera ~1.4 "cropping" by smoothly by just using the lens like normal and still have the same resolution as the S1 before.

I am super duper happy with this camera so far.

Here two shots of my dog full speed running and a little bird fairly far away with hybrid zoom. Rain was pouring and AF had no issues whatsoever here. Side note: the stabilization with the Sigma 150-600 is outstandingly good.

54472916642_dc094463ac_k.jpgPS1R2395 by Jan Wedekind, on Flickr

54474029718_e7825c2f7f_k.jpgPS1R2439 by Jan Wedekind, on Flickr



54473333771_7deb05215c_k.jpgPS1R0521 by Jan Wedekind, on Flickr
 
For completeness sake, here the one occasion in which the camera has let me down completely. It would not focus on the bird. Even when subject detection found it and framed it, it would refuse to focus on it. I also tried AF-S., with or without tracking etc.
Something in the combination of that messy background must have confused it.

That's been so far the only occasion I have encountered and to be honest, I don't think this would have been a good shot, I was rather trying to identify the actual bird in this case :)

54474051493_b76b259289_k.jpgPS1R1789-2 by Jan Wedekind, on Flickr
 
For completeness sake, here the one occasion in which the camera has let me down completely. It would not focus on the bird. Even when subject detection found it and framed it, it would refuse to focus on it. I also tried AF-S., with or without tracking etc.
Something in the combination of that messy background must have confused it.

That's been so far the only occasion I have encountered and to be honest, I don't think this would have been a good shot, I was rather trying to identify the actual bird in this case :)

View attachment 11253PS1R1789-2 by Jan Wedekind, on Flickr
I've experienced this same thing. It "sees" the bird and puts a rectangle around it, but focuses on the branches. Does this even when I use AF-ON-NEAR (or FAR). Hopefully that can be fixed with a firmware update.

I've also had it simply refuse to focus on a static scene (i.e., sunset) in a context I know my old DfD bodies would have handled fine. Not very often, but it does happen. DPR commented on the same thing in their just-published review.

BTW, DPR gave it a 91%, but refused to give it an award because of AF dependability. They said it was "not so good for" shooting action where absolute dependability is required.

I do think Panasonic needs to work on the AF a bit.
 
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