News Lumix 18-40/4.5-6.3

[dirk]

Interestingly, they haven't released firmware updates for the S1 cameras to support the collapsible feature. Wonder how it will work if you mounted it on one of these cameras?

I guess that there will be no alert screen that you have to turn the lens. The lack of FW upgrade for the S1 shows us, that this product is EOL. The other cameras will probably be still offered even if a successor arrives. This makes the body choice a lot broader with many different price points. An S1R will be an excellent camera even in 5 years.

 

[pdk42]

Excellent video from @Richard Wong . I know a link was posted earlier by @sergun80 , but I thought it wouldn't harm to post it again:

 

[pdk42]

Looking at all these 18-40 reviews, nearly all of which are with the S9, it does make me really sad that they couldn't have found a way to fit an EVF on it. I would surely have bought one by now if they had.

 

[dirk]

it does make me really sad that they couldn't have found a way to fit an EVF on it. I would surely have bought one by now if they had.

We are still young.... we can wait....

 

[Nevyn72]

Interestingly, they haven't released firmware updates for the S1 cameras to support the collapsible feature. Wonder how it will work if you mounted it on one of these cameras?

Richard has desribed this in his video. It works, but no nice message...

 

[robin0112358]

There is a reason the S9 doesn't have those things and has fewer dials and buttons than larger cameras.

Would a second dial and mechanical shutter have added to the size? No. So the critique is valid. The S9 could also have been a good camera for photographers but that side of the market was forgotten.

Yes, an EVF adds volume, but arguably not much. Another possibility is an EVF as optional accessory. This could have opened up new possibilities for future models. (Olympus did this for a while in MFT land.)

Getting back on topic... I will keep my 20-60mm as it's a better range for me. Good to see options, however.

Still looking forward to a range of compact primes.

LOLAMO (Laughing Out Loud At My Optimism)

 

[Pete_W]

Would a second dial and mechanical shutter have added to the size? No. So the critique is valid.

No, but additional dials and buttons would have added to the complexity and made the ergonomics quite cramped.

The S9 could also have been a good camera for photographers but that side of the market was forgotten.

Well I think it actually is a good camera for photographers. That's what I use mine for.

Yes, an EVF adds volume, but arguably not much. Another possibility is an EVF as optional accessory. This could have opened up new possibilities for future models. (Olympus did this for a while in MFT land.)

The lack of EVF seems to be the most polarising aspect of the camera, especially from YT reviewers like Chris who seem to think that every camera must have every feature. Yet millions of people every day take photos with a smartphone that has no EVF, and Chris and other reviewers don't say they must have one. The S9 is something different, deliberately so. I applaud Panasonic for its efforts.

As for clip-on EVFs, I had a LUMIX LX5 many years ago and purchased the clip-on EVF. It was really annoying.

Getting back on topic... I will keep my 20-60mm as it's a better range for me. Good to see options, however.

Still looking forward to a range of compact primes.

LOLAMO (Laughing Out Loud At My Optimism)

It will be interesting to see if Panasonic releases more compact primes. My guess is that they will not because Sigma has quite a few on the market already. And they're very good.

 

[Mister Sloane]

Would a second dial and mechanical shutter have added to the size? No. So the critique is valid. The S9 could also have been a good camera for photographers but that side of the market was forgotten.

Yes, an EVF adds volume, but arguably not much.

According to Keita Tsuji, head of LUMIX marketing at Panasonic Entertainment & Communication, the lack of EVF and mechanical shutter is due to keeping the size and weight down and in one interview, suggested that not having these was a key reason for how light it is.

Quite a few reviews that I watched did consider the trade-off and from those there was a consensus that it did keep size and weight down. It was also pointed out that if the S9 did have a mechanical shutter and EVF, the production cost would be higher and the price would be higher. Had it been at a higher price point, I suspect that people would be complaining about the price instead. If they had kept the price point the same, then there would a risk of sales cannibalism - as the Hybrid Shooter in his review pointed out, if an EVF and/or a mechanical shutter is important to you, Panasonic will be happy to seek you a S5II.

The Hybrid Shooter also commented that the lack of EVF wasn’t an issue for them as EVFs on cameras this size, are small and personally, he finds that they’re not worth the extra cost and space - but mileage will vary. When I got to try a S9 out and was chatting to a Panasonic rep, I commented that I felt it had an EVF there would be complaints that it wasn’t good enough. We rather saw this with the S5, where people online rubbished the viewfinder purely on the basis of docs but it was actually better that these suggested (as FWIW, Richard Wong commented on that).

 

[Mister Sloane]

I find YT a pain in the arse for wasting time. That Gordon Laing video could be summarised in a few paragraphs with some sample photos - total read time under two minutes. Instead I have to watch/scroll though almost 20 mins of him droning on. Actually I quite like Gordon's approach, but YT is not a great medium for photo kit reviews since video screen grabs to show sharpness from a low-bandwidth YT stream are about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

In fairness to Gordon, the Cameralabs website contains a written version for most of his reviews - that’s one reason I’m a fan of his and wish more YouTube reviewers did that.

 

[Mister Sloane]

I watched the Petapixel review and had to laugh. When summing up, Chris Niccolls said that "a second version of the S9 needs to have a mechanical shutter, an EVF and a headphone jack to make it more compelling". In which case that camera would be called an S5 or an S5II. Oh, wait....

There is a reason the S9 doesn't have those things and has fewer dials and buttons than larger cameras. I wonder if Chris thinks the Toyota Corolla is not compelling because it doesn't drive like a Porsche?

In a manufacturer round-up round-table Chris was part of recently, he was banging the same drum that he’s banged in the past - Panasonic need to throw stills shooters a bone and be more mindful of those users.

I found it interesting that he considered the Fujifilm X-T50’s dedicated filter dial was something that made it a genuinely compelling option for stills shooters. In fairness to Chris, a number of reviews said they were dubious about such a dial but ended up loving it - but at the same time, it made me wonder what the bar is for him when it comes what can be considered ‘photocentric’.

Again, in fairness to Chris, I’ve found he does wear his subjectivity on his sleeve. I recall one X100 review where his dislike of the focal range was trumping everything and the review was coming from an overly personal point of view, so tend to take his reviews with a larger than daily recommended amount of salt.

 

[Pete_W]

In a manufacturer round-up round-table Chris was part of recently, he was banging the same drum that he’s banged in the past - Panasonic need to throw stills shooters a bone and be more mindful of those users.

I found it interesting that he considered the Fujifilm X-T50’s dedicated filter dial was something that made it a genuinely compelling option for stills shooters. In fairness to Chris, a number of reviews said they were dubious about such a dial but ended up loving it - but at the same time, it made me wonder what the bar is for him when it comes what can be considered ‘photocentric’.

Again, in fairness to Chris, I’ve found he does wear his subjectivity on his sleeve. I recall one X100 review where his dislike of the focal range was trumping everything and the review was coming from an overly personal point of view, so tend to take his reviews with a larger than daily recommended amount of salt.

Yes, good points. He does wear his subjectivity on his sleeve! His aversion to the 35mm focal length is a case in point.

I also wonder if he's generally annoyed that video is where most of the camera brands are focusing their efforts.

 

[dirk]

I think we have to take the S9 for what it is and not for what we want it to be. If we do not accept that, we will never be happy with a product launch that is not the exact match of our dreams.

The argumentation whether there would have been enough space for an EVF or more dials will never die. Me too, I would have loved to have an EVF. The Leica Q3 shows what is possible in a small package. Of course the S9 would be bigger just because of the lens mount. But this argumentation leads us nowhere.

Video is the priority of the S9 target group. That means you have to construct it, that it meets their needs for their use cases. Easy to operate, no overheating. The smaller the body becomes (or by adding an EVF) there will be more problems with overheating. You can not have it all. Different products for different needs.

The S9 was made for this specific target group, incl. its design with less knobs and buttons. If you are not this target group, look somewhere else or wait for the next product launch. This is like complaining about a Porsche 911 that you can not pack your 5 big suitcases and 4 tall adults in it to use it for a long vacation. Buy something else for your vacation trips. Vote with your wallet. Simple as that. The company will change the product, if it does not sell well. Do not worry.

Regarding YouTubers

It seems to me that this is a simlar problem like with product launches. You agree in some reviews more and with some less. But that makes a YouTube reviewer not bad. He only expresses his own, very personal opinion. I want to do him that. Even if I do not agree with him in some cases, it is very good that his opinion differs from mine. Only the mix of the different opinions of the different YouTubers will give me the possibility to draw my own (again very subjective) conclusions.

YouTubers do not have the duty to please us. They just shall tell us what they like and what they do not like with a product. I do not need youtubers who only say what I like to hear. That would be a waste of time. If I want to enlargen my horizint. I need to hear opinions which are different. Only thanks to these different opnions, I can start to question myself, to check my old arguments etc.

This is why social media with its algorithms is so dangerous. Social Media shows you only news about your own, old opinion and this leads to blindnes for other arguments and will end in fanatism over the long run. An excessive intolerance of opposing views. That is not a good thing.

So if the YouTuber Chris does not like 35mm lenses, I am fine with that and I do not care. Others do not like 28mm or 50mm or FFL all together, small cameras or big cameras. You name it...

It will be interesting to see if Panasonic releases more compact primes. My guess is that they will not because Sigma has quite a few on the market already. And they're very good.

Yes, but the Sigma FFL are almost all F2.0 and out of metal. I could imagine that some FFL out of robust plastic with F2.8 or F4.0 could be very interesting for this target group. It makes the lenses smaller, lighter and might be good enough for video and social media snapshots.

I remember that Sony had a 85/2.8 FFL a long time ago, which was small & light and had a surprisingly good image quality. That was a pleasure if I did not want to carry my big and heavy Zeiss ZA 85/1.4 around.

 

[pdk42]

I do agree with Chris Nichols on the need for an EVF for stills shooters (and I’d add a second control dial to the list). I could live without a mechanical shutter since I don’t do action and I don’t use flash - both of which would really need one. But it is as it is. I won’t be be buying an S9. Meanwhile, the A7C is an example of what can be done in a similarly-sized camera. Will Panasonic ever produce an A7C-like S9? I doubt it, but I can live with an S5-sized camera anyhow. If I want something really compact, I’d get a m43 camera.

 

[pdk42]

According to Keita Tsuji, head of LUMIX marketing at Panasonic Entertainment & Communication, the lack of EVF and mechanical shutter is due to keeping the size and weight down and in one interview, suggested that not having these was a key reason for how light it is.

Except that the Sony A7Cii has both, plus a second command dial and it’s about 20g heavier and virtually the same size. Methinks that Tsuji-san is full of kuso!

 

[Quentinquirelino]

Except that the Sony A7Cii has both, plus a second command dial and it’s about 20g heavier and virtually the same size. Methinks that Tsuji-san is full of kuso!

I think the grip is what gives Sony for the A7CII the additional space needed. While Sony put most if the battery in to the grip, and got it out of the way for other stuff, Panasonic put it in the body, where it occupies a lot of space.

And of course, for many the way Sony did it would be the better solution and a grip would be a win win.

Maybe also a smaller battery and the sacrifices of IBIS for a mechanical shutter would also be a possibile, maybe also better for many, solution.

But it is how it is. For me, also as someone who mainly shoots stills, the missing EVF is no big issue. For many types of shooting, I found it more comfortable to work with the back screen and I also completely turn off the EVF of my S5 many times. For me the better screen compared to the A7CII is a huge plus for the S9.

However, I'm still not sure if the missing mechanical shutter would be an issue for me. I often shoot indoors where banding could be a problem. A few weeks ago, my smaller daughter had her birthday and in the early morning I even got banding with the mechanical shutter of the S5. I've forgot to reduce the minimum shutter speed in aperture priority. Turns out, you get banding with 1/500th or lower with my Philips LED lights.

 

[Nevyn72]

Maybe also a smaller battery and the sacrifices of IBIS for a mechanical shutter would also be a possibile, maybe also better for many, solution.

And for others that would be really a dealbreaker. Now the recording times are lifted and with the new lens, the S9 would make a ideal travel camera for my wife and myself.

For myself the IBIS and and the bigger camera are important plusses,

My wife might even want the camera, although with almost everything on automatic
(But its the first time she might want a camera, so a huge win!)

 

[xaviergut]

And for others that would be really a dealbreaker. Now the recording times are lifted and with the new lens, the S9 would make a ideal travel camera for my wife and myself.

For myself the IBIS and and the bigger camera are important plusses,

My wife might even want the camera, although with almost everything on automatic
(But its the first time she might want a camera, so a huge win!)

I think with the "animal detect AF" and the IBIS of the S9 it would be even possible to do videos like this one (even without gimbal):



You have Benji as starring actor (By the way, my daughter loves this video)

 

[Nevyn72]

I think with the "animal detect AF" and the IBIS of the S9 it would be even possible to do videos like this one (even without gimbal):



You have Benji as starring actor (By the way, my daughter loves this video)

I'm at work but check it later

 

[robin0112358]

According to Keita Tsuji, head of LUMIX marketing at Panasonic Entertainment & Communication, the lack of EVF and mechanical shutter is due to keeping the size and weight down and in one interview, suggested that not having these was a key reason for how light it is.

Quite a few reviews that I watched did consider the trade-off and from those there was a consensus that it did keep size and weight down. It was also pointed out that if the S9 did have a mechanical shutter and EVF, the production cost would be higher and the price would be higher.

This is the wrong thread to bang on about this tired topic, so this is my last comment. Forgive me for waffling on a bit.

You can believe marketing and YouTube promoters. Of course they will say whatever they need to in order to sell a product. It's their job. Taking them at face value is naive.

I will instead look at the engineering. A mechanical shutter and extra control do NOT add to the size of the camera. And they are essential for hybrid shooters. EVF is a different matter as it adds some bulk. (Already said as much above.) But it depends where you choose to draw the line. I have no doubt that all of these necessary features could have been included in a camera that was nonetheless smaller than the S5, if that was the compelling design goal. (If Panasonic couldn't do it, I have design students who could.)

The strange thing is, AFAICR I was the only person calling for a smaller Lumix S before this camera was released. Now, suddenly, Panasonic fans are online defending it!

Of all the promo videos hyping the S9 that I watched, not one had any photos taken inside. Well, I wonder why? Artificial lights will play havoc with stills taken using electronic shutter. Especially in low light when shutter speeds must be slow. Try it for yourself.

As for the price, the S9 is already so expensive that it makes the S5 Mk II look like an excellent deal. Which it is.

The S9 was designed for the TikTok generation and photography was an afterthought. That is obvious from its engineering and marketing. Pretending otherwise is counterfactual.

But Panasonic Lumix S cameras are (ahem, were) great exactly because they are hybrids. It's easy to buy a superior video camera from another manufacturer. It's easy to buy a superior stills camera from another manufacturer. Facts. But Panasonic Lumix bodies offered great value in combining both. With the S9 they have forsaken their strength in the search for low-hanging fruit in a market I know well... it coincides with my own students. Not one of them is going to spend that much money to make the same videos they make on their phones. Some might use a film camera, because it's cool. Some even use a TLR, or a box camera. Or old digital videocams... they are suddenly trendy. I even know one young person (exactly one) in my city who shoots Lumix S. But he knows about video and would never be happy with the S9.

Meanwhile there are a lot of pissed off S1 owners being very vocal online.

Personally I am not happy that the S5 has been abandoned while still in the product line-up. That's not the treatment I expect. After saying we couldn't get any new firmware we actually did get the following, which is either hilarious or a slap in the face, depending on your mood.

"Added a pop-up message when using a Panasonic collapsible lens."

A wonderful improvement after twelve months, yes?

Except that the Sony A7Cii has both, plus a second command dial and it’s about 20g heavier and virtually the same size. Methinks that Tsuji-san is full of kuso!

Didn't see this before replying. Though I really dislike Sony I will check out that camera. Thanks for the tip.

 

[dirk]

@robin0112358

It is obvious that you are not happy with the S9. But nobody forces you to buy it.

The strange thing is, AFAICR I was the only person calling for a smaller Lumix S before this camera was released.

I can not speak for other forums, but in this forum many members wish a smaller L-Mount camera. I say this since I had a prototype of the S1R in my hands. This was in 2018. At that time a S5 was not yet in sight.

The S9 was designed for the TikTok generation

Yes.

Pretending otherwise is counterfactual.

Panasonic never said something different. They stated clearly from the beginning, that this is not a camera designed for photographers. I do not know how you get this impression.

Even in the YouTube reviewers from the photography channels, all those I watched said clearly this is not for them as a photographer and Panasonic told them this on the S9 event. Watch again the embedded videos in the S9 threads.

No member in this forum pretended something different. But there a various members who use the S9 for photography only nevertheless and they are happy with it. I used the S9 on my trip to Japan for photography only. There is nothing wrong with that.

Meanwhile there are a lot of pissed off S1 owners

I think this is your the problem. Until now you did not get what you hoped for. Guess what. Me neither. Many others are in the same boat. Also here in the forum.

But this is not an excuse to badmouth everything or to make wrong statements

Panasonic did not do something wrong. They just did not announce yet the product the majority of this forum would like to have.

If you are convinced, that no currently available Lumix camera can fullfill your needs then you have to look elsewhere. But be prepared that they do the same with their product cycles.

Go back in history and look what Sony did with the different line ups over the last ca. 12 years. THAT did get me really angry. I sold my Sony system and switched back to Nikon because of Sony's business practice at that time.

I do not see anything close to that with Panasonic.