Leaving L-Mount

[Oíche]

Many of us are hoping that Lumix will put a flagship camera like the Z9 or the Z8 on the market.

If they were to they need to make 600 f4 etc. sports/BIF lenses. Not sure how well current lenses (Lumix & Sigma) would compare on a Z8/Z9 or Canon flagship? Surely the dual AF motor in Lumix S 100 f2.8 macro is up there with the best beasts?

My S5ii flummoxed me today again, I'm still far from expert with the amount of choices and I hate that when out in the field, today it was the AF in video. I've yet to touch AF sensitivity settings, maybe the others work better out of the box. I feel most users are inhibited by the settings and options and are not getting the capability from it

I spent too many years in simple Pentax DSLR and simple film cameras so it's my fault too as I'm still a noob with mirrorless but it's annoying not getting what I want it to do.

 

[pdk42]

I was not holding a Z8 up to now, but what is your impression in comparison to the S1/S1R body? The Lumix is big and heavy (like I expect the same from the Z8), but in direct comparison the S1R offers a much better handling (buttons, joystick, etc) than my S5. But the S5 is the one to go for a longer tour…
How do you compare the S1R and S5 to the Z8?

The Z8 is actually a little bigger than the S1R. They are.both about the same weight (900g).

 

[dirk]

How do you compare the S1R and S5 to the Z8?

They did not have the S1r there to compare it side by side 8n the same minute. I only tried the S1r years ago and it was way too big for me.

But it is impossible to compare the S1r out of memory with the Z8.

I only can say that I was really surprised how big both, the Nikon Z8 and Z6mkiii are. I would not have expected that. My old Z6 mk1 felt always good in my hands. Not too big at all.

I am surprised that no reviewer says something about body sizes. We are close or already at Medium Format sizes with the body sizes.

 

[xaviergut]

But everyone understands something different with the word "flagship".

I agree, Dirk.

For me, a flagship camera is one that provides excellent performance for all photographic genres in any scenario and offers the same for video. I think both the Nikon Z9/Z8 and the Sony A1 could fall into this category. I don't know which is the best Canon camera.

I don't know to what extent the L-mount alliance can compete with Sony, Nikon or Canon, or if it should focus on the market in which it stands out above the rest, which I think is video and it seems like cinema in the future.

But if Lumix/Sigma/Leica made a Z8/Z9 or a Sony A1 I would buy it without hesitation, selling some of my photographic/videographic material.

 

[RBecker]

They did not have the S1r there to compare it side by side 8n the same minute. I only tried the S1r years ago and it was way too big for me.

But it is impossible to compare the S1r out of memory with the Z8.

I only can say that I was really surprised how big both, the Nikon Z8 and Z6mkiii are. I would not have expected that. My old Z6 mk1 felt always good in my hands. Not too big at all.

I am surprised that no reviewer says something about body sizes. We are close or already at Medium Format sizes with the body sizes.

That is a good comparison: l’m using my Olympus MFT equipment like I used my SLR gear in the past and the l-mount system like I used my old Pentax67 medium format in the past. The MFT is better than 24x36 film ever was and the S1R can compete with the big medium format in terms of quality. So it is just a shift of naming but size and weight is still comparable…

 

[dirk]

I don't know to what extent the L-mount alliance can compete with Sony, Nikon or Canon,

I think the AF (although much better now with PDAF in some situations), is still not on par with the other 3 brands.

This will still take some time. Maybe this is the reason why Panasonic postponed the launch of the S1R?

We have to be aware that product cycles are getting longer and longer. It is now more like in the analogue times. Every 4-6 years you will see a new flagship model. Probably even longer (like every 8 years) if there will be no technological break out inbetween.

The reason for this is that all cameras are already that good, that it needs more time to improve a model in a meaningful way for real life situations. Otherwise people will not buy it and stick with the old model. That would be financially a desaster for every brand.

Look at the Pro models from Nikon over the last 65 years as an example:

Nikon F came out in 1959
Nikon F2 in 1971
Nikon F3 in 1980
Nikon F4 in 1988
Nikon F5 in 1996
Nikon F6 in 2004 and ended it in 2020.

With many innovations, especially MP, AF and later sensor size, the Nikon Pro DSLRs were upgraded a lot faster and later slowing down again:

Nikon D1 in 1999 (2.7MP, APS-C sensor)
D1H in 2001 (2.7MP, high speed, APSC)
D1X in 2001 (5,3MP, APSC)
D2H in 2003 (4,1MP, APSC)
D2x in 2004 (12,4MP, APSC)
D2Hs in 2005 (almost the same as D2H)
D3 in 2007 (12 MP, fullframe)
D3x in 2009 (24MP, fullframe)
D3s in 2009 (12MP, fullframe)
D4 in 2012 (16MP, fullframe)
D4s in 2014 (16MP, fullframe)
D5 in 2016 (20MP, fullframe)
D6 in 2020 (20MP, fullframe)

Z9 in 2021, 45MP

Therefore I think product cycles of all brands will slow down significantly. All have fullframe nowadays, only few people need 45MP or even 60 MP and those who really need it, will consider Medium Format too, depending on the use case.

I think we are going with future improvements more and more "niche", i.e. MP resolution nobody really needs, AF capabilities for really extreme situations, fps nobody really uses, video in 8k (who cares?) etc.

 

[dirk]

The MFT is better than 24x36 film ever was

This is why I always will stick with MFT as my "base" system. I know this is the quality I need and realistically do not need more.

Fullframe is for me the replacement of Medium Format in terms of image quality, dynamic range etc. I do not really need that image quality and could live without it easily, but I enjoy using it. Especially the new lens designs. So small and so good...

But as soon as a brand offers body sizes which are as big and heavy (or heavier) than Medium Format, I am turned off.

I love Medium Format, but more a Hasselblad 500CM or Rollei 6008. The Hasselblad X2D would be also nice. But these are very special MF cameras. Not a blown up DSLR like other options.

 

[RBecker]

We have to be aware that product cycles are getting longer and longer. It is now more like in the analogue times. Every 4-6 years you will see a new flagship model. Probably even longer (like every 8 years) if there will be no technological break out inbetween.

The reason for this is that all cameras are already that good, that it needs more time to improve a model in a meaningful way for real life situations. Otherwise people will not buy it and stick with the old model. That would be financially a desaster for every brand.

Therefore I think product cycles of all brands will slow down significantly. All have fullframe nowadays, only few people need 45MP or even 60 MP and those who really need it, will consider Medium Format too, depending on the use case.

I think we are going with future improvements more and more "niche", i.e. MP resolution nobody really needs, AF capabilities for really extreme situations, fps nobody really uses, video in 8k (who cares?) etc.

I‘m with you and totally disagree at the same time!

I also think that the product cycles will become longer and longer, but for a different reason: the sales numbers of digital cameras has decreased significantly and there is no sign for change. The development cost are quite high and 20-15 years ago this was no problem. I think Canon was able to calculate with a new standard model and only slight updates every year (remember the 300,350,400,450,500,550,600,650,700…). Today the numbers are sometimes so low, that a model needs to run for years…

And with the l-mount we are in an even more difficult environment: low quantities, no hot selling products. I expect Sigma will sell their lenses in much higher numbers for e-mount and the l-mount is just possible because the base design is already done.
Why is Leica using Sigma designs for the holy trinity? If they would sell these lenses in numbers I have no doubt that they would design and produce it by themselves. But with low numbers the cost of their already expensive lenses would explode

 

[cascadian]

Leaving? I'm contemplating a shift from a7r² to S5. As a long time Pentax fan I'm used to systems that receive less attention than they deserve. I can dump my alpha gear for a gently used S5 and 20-60 quite easily, though with a loss that's mighty generous to a dealer. I lose pixels but the sensor dxo values are sufficiently similar, and the ergonomic bonuses are valuable.

Lightweight gear is my friend, and >200mm is more range than I need most of the time. I've Pentax primes from 28 to 135 in any case (plus my 1-kilo Kmart 80-200/3.5 when I need exercise!)

My kingdom for a 50-200mm, though: it's weird that a lighter telezoom in that range is shunned by almost all mirrorless systems.. except Lumix G!

 

[PL-Shooter]

Well, now that my S 14-28 & S 28-200 have SOLD on FM, I just might keep the S5 "Kit" & the S 70-300. They work so well and complement each other nicely.
Purchased new at a very good price so I'm not tying up a lot of $$$.