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News Interview with Sigma
- Thread starter dirk
- Start date
GeorgeHudetz
Well-Known Member
Yes. Two things stood out:
- If Sigma were ever to build a "normal" camera, it could very well be a pro-level sports camera. And guess what? Panasonic as left that door open.
- They are still working on Foveon. But nothing that even smelled like a commitment.
- If Sigma were ever to build a "normal" camera, it could very well be a pro-level sports camera. And guess what? Panasonic as left that door open.
- They are still working on Foveon. But nothing that even smelled like a commitment.
Kazuto Yamaki likes prime lenses, which gives me hope for a 28/2.0 i-series or even a 43/2.0 i-series FFL.
He mentioned in that interview, that Sigma will announce more new products in 2025 (maybe this week-end?). I pray that a 28 FFL and a small & light travel telezoom are among them.
He mentioned in that interview, that Sigma will announce more new products in 2025 (maybe this week-end?). I pray that a 28 FFL and a small & light travel telezoom are among them.
Markuswelder
Well-Known Member
Are you sure? Where do you think the S1R mkII is lacking?
George meant a camera specialized on sport & wildlife photography. Because Kazuto Yamaki pointed to the huge telezoom on that table and said he would like to produce one day a very professional camera for that kind of lenses.
I am glad that the word hybrid or video was not used in that interview. It is great that someone appreciates pure photography and a simplistic and classic design.
What would we do without the Sigma i-series? Shooting analog or buy a Leica M?
Markuswelder
Well-Known Member
Personally, I'd be doing just fine. I don't own a single Sigma I series lens, doing just fine with what Panasonic makes. In saying that, I'm not ruling them out for future purchases, that would just be silly
I thought you have the Sigma 45/2.8?
Markuswelder
Well-Known Member
No, I use the Canon EF 40mm pancake. Which I like very much. 45 is too close to 50mm for my liking. That's why I'm hoping someone does a native 40mm L mount pancake. Not 43 or 45mm.
GeorgeHudetz
Well-Known Member
Since I'm not an experienced/pro sports photographer, no, I'm not sure. But from what I can tell, a pro-level sports body would have the following above & beyond the S1RII:
- A stacked sensor;
- A bigger buffer with improved buffer clearing logic;
- A bigger body & battery, or two batteries (i.e., integrated grip)
- Possibly incrementally better AF (yet to be determined).
Not that you couldn't do amazing sports photography with the S1RII, but I suspect a true professional sports photographer would pass on it if they were looking for a new system right now. And I'm pretty sure Panasonic would not claim to have targeted such photographers with the S1RII.
BTW, at the end of Gerald Undone's S1RII video, he basically said that with a stacked sensor, the S1RII would have ruled the market (although I do think the other points I make are important for pro sports). Maybe they will make an S0 some day, LOL.
It's an amazing camera, but the choice to go with a BSI sensor has implications. Probably unimportant for most, but not everyone.
I'm certainly not canceling my order.
Markuswelder
Well-Known Member
Me neither. But I am curious as what's missing. Personally, I don't see a stacked sensor as imperative. It brings its own set of compromises along with it, about the only real advantage I can see is the faster readout, but if you can't get your shot at 10 fps then I think you might have bigger issues than rolling shutter in certain scenarios.
Buffer -It don't even know what the S1R 2 is to be perfectly honest
I think the less comprehensive lineup of super tele's in L mount would be the bigger hurdle myself, but it looks like Sigma is addressing that, at prices that aren't out of reach even for a serious amateur. I think one would be a bit harsh to criticise them for that however, as you start getting into the chicken/egg scenario.
Just a few of my thoughts
GeorgeHudetz
Well-Known Member
The reason it's important for a pro is that they don't want warped shapes in the their professional images. They want things to look natural.
A little more detail:
- No pre-capture in the 10 fps mode.
- Also, with zero-blackout, the screen is always one frame behind what's actually happening. Not so bad at 40 fps, but I could see that being a problem at 10 fps. Harder to compose as the bird/athlete moves around the frame.
So you end up needing to use 40 fps (although I hope the 20 fps rumor turns out to be true), which uses the electronic shutter. Which gives you warped geometry when things move quickly because the non-stacked sensor updates too slowly.
To be fair & forthright: I don't know how bad it will be with the S1RII, but I'd like to know before I pull the trigger. I want my next body to handle things that move fast reasonably well - both from an AF standpoint and from an IQ standpoint. I can put up with some distortion, but for a pro, I suspect this would be a hard pass.
It's small, at least for 40 fps. I think it's good for about 3 seconds. And given that the pre-cap is 1.5 seconds, that doesn't give much time for after you press the trigger. Also, it takes a long time to empty the buffer, and you can't start shooting again until it's clear. Just like the G9II. So you grab three seconds of action and then have to wait 15 seconds or so. Not good, at least for a pro. Now at 20 fps it becomes more workable. But still you have to wait. Anyway, you asked why people believe there is still room in the L-mount lineup for a pro sports body, and this, I believe, is one of them.
Yes, agree on everything there.
And a few of mine.
Again, it's early days. We will learn more in the coming weeks & months, I'm sure. Particularly on the effect of the slower sensor on fast moving pans & subjects.
I do not think that the S1Rii is "good enough" for high demanding sport photographers.
I would be suprised if the second generation of PDAF Lumix cameras would be fast and accurate enough to compete with others for i.e. the Olympic games. But we will see that soon, once the first users have one.
The buffer is the bigger problem. Look at the Buffet video of Richard. No matter in which setting, the S1Rii first pushes all images in the buffer and only after the buffer is full, it writes the images on the card.
The Lumix G9ii does the same, by the way. See the video of Emily for this. It always takes the S1Rii around 20 seconds to write the images on the card, no matter how many images.
Panasonic markets the S1Rii as a hybrid camera with high MP, not as a sport camera. At least not until now. There is nothing wrong with that. It costs a lot less than the competition, incl. sport cameras for pros. It does not need to be perfect for every use case
.
I would be suprised if the second generation of PDAF Lumix cameras would be fast and accurate enough to compete with others for i.e. the Olympic games. But we will see that soon, once the first users have one.
The buffer is the bigger problem. Look at the Buffet video of Richard. No matter in which setting, the S1Rii first pushes all images in the buffer and only after the buffer is full, it writes the images on the card.
The Lumix G9ii does the same, by the way. See the video of Emily for this. It always takes the S1Rii around 20 seconds to write the images on the card, no matter how many images.
Panasonic markets the S1Rii as a hybrid camera with high MP, not as a sport camera. At least not until now. There is nothing wrong with that. It costs a lot less than the competition, incl. sport cameras for pros. It does not need to be perfect for every use case
.
Markuswelder
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I see it as the 36x24 version of the G9 mkII. Still a Hybrid, but a very very good one that's more than capable of shooting sports and high speed action. I really don't think Panasonic are that interested in making a pure Pro sports stills camera, they've said in the past that Hybrid is what they're more interested in, to make a pure sports camera compromises the Hybrid part too much I think
GeorgeHudetz
Well-Known Member
I do not think that the S1Rii is "good enough" for high demanding sport photographers.
I would be suprised if the second generation of PDAF Lumix cameras would be fast and accurate enough to compete with others for i.e. the Olympic games. But we will see that soon, once the first users have one.
The buffer is the bigger problem. Look at the Buffet video of Richard. No matter in which setting, the S1Rii first pushes all images in the buffer and only after the buffer is full, it writes the images on the card.
The Lumix G9ii does the same, by the way. See the video of Emily for this. It always takes the S1Rii around 20 seconds to write the images on the card, no matter how many images.
Panasonic markets the S1Rii as a hybrid camera with high MP, not as a sport camera. At least not until now. There is nothing wrong with that. It costs a lot less than the competition, incl. sport cameras for pros. It does not need to be perfect for every use case
Exactly! Hence my comment that Panasonic left the door open for Sigma to make a pro sports camera. Markus asked what was missing, and I gave a short list.
I have some topics already mentioned here before, but also simple just looking at my OM1 from Olympus (which is already some years old…)
- very slow card transfer (it looks like the old S1R was faster with CFE cards!)
- no intermediate continous speeds for electronic shutter between 10 and 40
- still no better configurable exposure bracketing after 10 years (like 3 or 5 pictures with 2EV difference)
- no live B oder T option for long exposures
- no flash with ES, even at slow shutter speeds (very helpful with Highres and tabletop or macro)
- no internal stacking of macro shots into one RAW
- old Battery. Formfactor from S5/GH is ok, but after 5years a version B with higher capacity should be possible
And very personal:
- a star tracer like Pentax is providing ( but no one else is doing it too )
- I like the top LCD, will miss it
- something not available from any manfacturer: an eye AF which places the focus between the eyes, so you get both eyes near to perfect with fast lenses. Actually (with S5ii) one eye is always perfect, but then addationally for example the nose tip. With AI the portrait AF should be able to do much better…
I expect a lot of topics can be adressed by firmware. I hope that the support for future FW will be better than the last years with the S1R!
pdk42
Moderator
I tried doing some bird photography years ago with an Olympus EM1.2. Even at 15fps using electronic shutter (with a read-out speed of 1/60s) and being careful not to press for too long, I came back with way, way, way too many images. I got some decent shots but overall, I didn't find photos of birds that interesting as an "art form". I also couldn't detect any noticable rolling shutter effects.
It seems to me that crazy high frame rates for stills photography is definitely a very specialised requirement (hummingbirds perhaps). I would think that any half-decent photographer should be able to do serious sports and wildlife with the S1Rii.
It seems to me that crazy high frame rates for stills photography is definitely a very specialised requirement (hummingbirds perhaps). I would think that any half-decent photographer should be able to do serious sports and wildlife with the S1Rii.
GeorgeHudetz
Well-Known Member
While I agree that 40 fps is ridiculous for most cases, it's not the frame that is the concern (at least for me). It's the distortion/warping that occurs with an electronic shutter on a slow(ish) sensor. I don't want a warped bird or race car.
Yes, you can use the mechanical shutter at 10 fps - which is probably fast enough for me in most situations - but then you lose pre-capture, which is one of the features that I find highly attractive on the S1RII.
Anway, it would seem that the readout speed for stills while in 12-bit mode is 20 ms. Which seems at least decent. Not fast enough to eliminate the mechanical shutter, but still decent. I just don't know how that equates to real-world imagery. How fast will something have to be moving through the frame before distortion becomes obvious with a 20ms sensor?
BTW there are rumors of a 20 fps burst mode coming. Which would be nice since the buffer fills up far to quickly for me at 40 fps.
I also owned the Olympus E-M1II with a readout of about 16ms and never had problems with birds in flight. And if we get 20ms this is not so far away from that…
I would have much more concerns with the low saving rate to the CFE card. About 2 RAWs per second is extremly slow and I hope this bottleneck could be fixed with a firmware update.
I would have much more concerns with the low saving rate to the CFE card. About 2 RAWs per second is extremly slow and I hope this bottleneck could be fixed with a firmware update.
GeorgeHudetz
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that. That's exactly the kind of anecdotal observations I am looking for.