Markuswelder
Well-Known Member
He is the messenger, only because he can see a monetary benefit for himself, in the way of hits. That's all. He is not the Messiah. Just a naughty little boy
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Gerald Undone's video about the state of the review industry
- Thread starter Markuswelder
- Start date
Markuswelder
Well-Known Member
And?
pdk42
Moderator
And that might explain why he has a camera but (maybe) didn’t go to Osaka. But I really don’t know what the situation is with him and the S9 launch.
Markuswelder
Well-Known Member
Neither do I. And I don't much care either. But I have watched quite a number of reviews where he has criticized Panasonic, and yet he still got the camera (S9) in his hands. Through whatever means, or circumstances.This tells me that there's possibly a lot more going on behind the scenes between Gerald and Panasonic than meets the eye. Just guessing here. Not that I'm particularly interested in that cr@p anyway. But what I am interested in, is a variety of viewpoints and experiences users have had with the camera. Even though I have zero intention of ever buying one. Not just a list of negatives. Because I personally find that, and those types of people annoying, depressing, boring, and frustrating. I avoid that type of person in real life. I can make up my own mind what doesn't, or won't work for me, without 30 minutes of negativity. But that's just me. So far, what I've watched about the S9 on YouTube has been pretty balanced I feel. That's it. Unfortunately, a lot of photography forums are some of the most negative, depressing and plain miserable places on the interwebz. Sad but true.
Gerald Undone is widely known for his in depth reviews. He is a tech enthusiast, who tests cameras on a level you will not find a lot out there. He has over 400.000 subscribers and is with this among the top 5% (my guess) of the most influentual youtube reviewers for the photo industry.
I disagree. I think the whole discussion about this video is getting away from what Gerald wanted to get to the audience. People on youtube and in forums are talking now about the relationship between Panasonic and Gerald. This was not the point he wanted to make. The S9 event was just a hook to address something which is a problem with all brands, all industries, all reviewers.
He explained this very clear at the beginning of the video. The first time he looked it through the eyes of a neutral non-reviewer like we are ourselves and suddenly felt strange about all these reviews he is normally involved in himself.
This Panasonic experience with the S5ii review was just an example among several to explain how different some brands react to something and even change over the time. I have the feeling that people oversee that he sais also good things about Panasonic in that video. especially Panasonic USA.
If you start out with a new youtube channels and review products, you will by default go through these 3 phases he explained in that video. And I think it is very good from him to try to give the "smaller" youtubers the self confidence, to stick to their review style, to not get under publishing pressure, to not think that you have to be the first to publish a review of a new product.
We have many examples who do it already the right way. See at the reviews of Richard, of Hugh Brownstone and many others. They took their time to review the product, they did not do everything only during the event. And if that inherent psychological pressure would be even less, these reviewers could take even more time for their reviews and publish it i.e. even 3 week later.
As far as I remember, that embargo date of the S5ii was even a lot later than the launch event in Japan. Maybe it would be a good idea to establish in the industry a standard to put the embargo time always at least 4 week after such an event, so all reviewers have enough time to test, to prepare and to make their thoughts about a new product, even if they decide not to go to such an event.
We consumers would benefit from this and there would be less pressure for the reviewers, too.
The other point is how the companies and the reviewers shall interact with each other. I think everyone will agree, that it is better if the companies will send review items to the reviewers, even if the reviewer find negatives points on a product and is not punished when showing the negative points (in his personal opinion). We would also benefit from this too. The consumers, the reviewers and even the companies.
What people often oversee is that each review is just a personal opinion. Not more, not less. There are many reviewers and therefore by default many different opinions about a product, about a feature or the lack of a feature.
We saw this very strong with the release of the Lumix S9. There are many different opinions about it, always depending on the use case what the reviewer or the forum user wants to do with it. This is like cars. All cars can drive you from point A to point B. But there are many different opinions, what should be included in a car, how much it shall costs and how big or fast etc. it shall be. There will never be a car that fits everyone's needs. It is the same with cameras.
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CharlesH
LMF-Patron Gold
What I found interesting, and possibly a mistake, is that Panasonic invited traditional YouTube camera reviewers to Osaka, and not the Content Creators they say the S9 is intended for. Many of the reviews I saw said they did not know the market for the S9. That, really, makes it impossible to do a meaningful review. Presumably Panasonic spent time researching and understanding Content Creators as part of the S9 development. But I've not seen any reviews or comments from that segment.
Gerald Undone is well known for his very technical reviews of video cameras; that is, he reviews the video capabilities of the mirrorless cameras we shoot. As a video shooter I've learned a lot from his reviews. I would agree with Panasonic, there is not much Gerald can bring to a review of the S9. There are no video advancements over the S5II, and there are the takeaways we all know about; no headphone socket, no viewfinder, and a lessor codec tailored for Content Creators. He knows LUTS very well, but I doubt he would know whether or not the new S9 implementation is valuable for Content Creators.
I'm sorry he was upset over Osaka, and sorry he seems to be having a feud with Panasonic marketing.
Gerald Undone is well known for his very technical reviews of video cameras; that is, he reviews the video capabilities of the mirrorless cameras we shoot. As a video shooter I've learned a lot from his reviews. I would agree with Panasonic, there is not much Gerald can bring to a review of the S9. There are no video advancements over the S5II, and there are the takeaways we all know about; no headphone socket, no viewfinder, and a lessor codec tailored for Content Creators. He knows LUTS very well, but I doubt he would know whether or not the new S9 implementation is valuable for Content Creators.
I'm sorry he was upset over Osaka, and sorry he seems to be having a feud with Panasonic marketing.
The target group does not make product reviews.
The fact that you use social media and make a 5 minute video of the birthday of your kids or of your last vacation does not mean that you are interested in making reviews. They probably do not even have a YouTube channel.
I agree it's a normal personal reaction. But I assume that his YouTube channel is his "professional" gig, i.e. how he makes his living, and therefore I think he has just damaged that by posting the video. There is nothing wrong with making a video or writing an article exposing how the industry works, but making it from the position of being one of the central characters will only draw attention to the fact that he is not an impartial bystander and therefore it appears like sour grapes.
This is where I disagree. He has a conflict of interest in this matter. For anyone watching, whether the conflict is real or perceived he will not be judged as objective.
On the contrary, I would not trust any future reviews from him. And he has damaged his own brand. And it appears has damaged relationships.
He should not be the messenger because he is not impartial in this matter. He is one of the central characters. To make a trustworthy report into a situation requires an independent reporter. He is not independent.
Richard Wong
Well-Known Member
Charles,
Panasonic is very aware of the fact that traditional camera users and people who watch Youtube camera reviews are not their target users for the S9. Lots of Instagrammer/Tiktoker/ content creators were at Osaka. They just don't post on Youtube.
I've very strong reaction about this video, but I am trying my best not to comment/discuss publicly.
The only comment I want to add is, yes launch event (of any kind, any brand) is always about marketing and of course companies would pick who they want to invite and who they don't. But quite a few reviewers invited to Osaka have posted negative videos/comments about Lumix cameras in the past and currently Sony shooters. Yet they were still invited to Osaka. And Fuji does ship their pre-released cameras to people before the Fuji summit. Or how could me or Gordon Liang or Petapixel release our XT-50 review while we were all physically at the Lumix summit on the Fuji Sydney Summit /X-T50 announcement day?
Markuswelder
Well-Known Member
So do I. First and foremost, he is NOT providing a community service here. He is in the business of promoting himself and his channel, to make money. We all have to do that, or we starve and die.
He is NOT in any way elected as a mouthpiece, to speak for the whole industry. This is very very clear, easily noticed by reading comments by others in the same industry. He speaks for himself, and himself only. Not you. Not me. Not the industry. No matter how vehemently he denies it, he has cast aspersions on anyone who has attended a product launch.
Except himself of course, because he has stood up against the tyrants, and made that video. And a couple of his friends. Because, well, they're his friends lol lol lol.
CharlesH
LMF-Patron Gold
Thanks Richard, that gives me more confidence in Panasonic's approach.
Markuswelder
Well-Known Member
After re-reading this, I have no idea what you're on about. Or which reviews you're watching/reading. Every single review I've read/watched from the launch so far, has openly and honestly discussed the pros and cons of the camera. No flash, check. No EVF, check. No mechanical shutter, check. I think it was Emily from micro four nerds that even showed a workaround for that, with banding. Should that not be allowed, for being too positive? So where are the cover ups?
If you asked me, everyone so far has gone out of their way to point out possible issues for different users, and suggest various alternatives to the S9 should it not be suitable for purpose
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The majority of reviews have been very honest and many are quite negative. It’s G100 all over again.
I sometimes wonder if Panasonic might get to the point where they simply exit the camera market given the negative reception most of their cameras receive from the YouTubers and the shrinking market.
Markuswelder
Well-Known Member
Well, either that, or just ignore the grumpy old smoking jacket wearing neck beards that seem to inhabit stills photography forums, and just concentrate their efforts on the hybrid media creation area. Which they do look to be gravitating towards, if you consider the history of their 35mm format entrance
Markuswelder
Well-Known Member
I stole this from another forum. Someone who gets it.
"I watched several English-speaking S9 reviewers, mostly from US/EU/AU.
Some were excellent, but some were out of places, ranting like why not having this and that professional features etc.
Some said they preferred to shoot, downloaded file into notebook, spent hours editing, chose some files to share. I felt the air of frustration. I don't blame them. Partly due to Lumix's fault to pick the wrong reviewers for S9. If you are a hammer (pro photo/video grapher), you always look for nail, or lack of it.
There was a reason why can't Lumix just sent S9 and spec sheet to reviewer. This camera, like a new weird kid, needs understanding and experiencing.
The comments also reflected what reviewers said.
. . .
Move to Asia, when you read "Lumix S9" comments on Twitter from Japanese folks, it's a whole different story.
They knows S9 is "SNS" camera = Shoot & Share. It's what it is.
So, they reviewed and discussed based on SNS concept, the ability and easiness to do SNS jobs, compared with alternative.
How fast it is.
Is it possible to operate SNS on one hand.
How useful is the hybrid zoom that smart phone can't do, like recording my kid sport.
What is the different between LUT, picture profile and photo edit app on smart phone. (LUT is way better).
How S9 experience and output compared to my smart phone.
It's universally understandable, without ranting, that if you want to shoot interviews, long video, pro photo, go for S5II. Full stop.
If you think $1,500 is expensive, just wait for few months. Price will drop, as always.
I think the Japanese makes senses. No drama. A lot of Japanese fan already tried S9 at Tokyo Lumix Base last weekend. The reasons to buy S9 are size/weight, SNS, and color inside and outside.
. . .
Now, move to my country, Thailand. 3 reviewers went to Japan.
The first reviewer is professional videographer, wedding and events. After he saw S9 spec, 1 card slot & video recording limit, he knew exactly and immediately who was S9 for. Not for his wedding/event pro works, but for taking short video clip and quick sharing on social media. And he evaluated and used based on what it is, and had a lot of fun. He didn't rant why he couldn't take 90 mins video.
Another respectful reviewer, a veteran Canon/OM professional photographer, also reviewed S9. He actually saw S9 "two weeks" before the press event, and he didn't appreciate it then. But after he spent 3-4 days in Japan, and almost a weeklong vacation after that, his view completely changed and he ordered S9 plus few lens for this own use.
He said this is the new concept for content creating, similar to when people changed from film (you don't see your output on spot) to digital (you see on the back of the screen). Now, S9 with real time LUT allowed you to see the final output right away, without editing after. You only appreciated when you really used it for what it is, not what it is not.
He said after using S9 with LUT, it's hard for him to go back to old ways of shooting -> downloading -> editing on computer -> sharing anymore. It's what SNS concept is. On his next outing, other cameras will stay at home.
It's not about which camera has the max spec, it's about which address your particular needs. He said most companies build a sword for samurai, S9 is a knife for a normal person. Sometimes, a samurai needs a simple knife too.
. . .
I read one Japanese person tweeted that for Lumix line, G stands for General, while S stands for Specialized. It seems his understanding is correct.
Now, SNS is not for everyone. And whether it will be commercially successful or not is to be seen. But pre-order in my country points toward very early success.
Now people start to order Sigma i-series before getting S9. Some of them are already out of stock.
If you want a full feature pro camera in a good price, why don't get S5II. But if you want a complete S5II feature in small S9 body, you will not get it, at least for now.
#LumixS9"
"I watched several English-speaking S9 reviewers, mostly from US/EU/AU.
Some were excellent, but some were out of places, ranting like why not having this and that professional features etc.
Some said they preferred to shoot, downloaded file into notebook, spent hours editing, chose some files to share. I felt the air of frustration. I don't blame them. Partly due to Lumix's fault to pick the wrong reviewers for S9. If you are a hammer (pro photo/video grapher), you always look for nail, or lack of it.
There was a reason why can't Lumix just sent S9 and spec sheet to reviewer. This camera, like a new weird kid, needs understanding and experiencing.
The comments also reflected what reviewers said.
. . .
Move to Asia, when you read "Lumix S9" comments on Twitter from Japanese folks, it's a whole different story.
They knows S9 is "SNS" camera = Shoot & Share. It's what it is.
So, they reviewed and discussed based on SNS concept, the ability and easiness to do SNS jobs, compared with alternative.
How fast it is.
Is it possible to operate SNS on one hand.
How useful is the hybrid zoom that smart phone can't do, like recording my kid sport.
What is the different between LUT, picture profile and photo edit app on smart phone. (LUT is way better).
How S9 experience and output compared to my smart phone.
It's universally understandable, without ranting, that if you want to shoot interviews, long video, pro photo, go for S5II. Full stop.
If you think $1,500 is expensive, just wait for few months. Price will drop, as always.
I think the Japanese makes senses. No drama. A lot of Japanese fan already tried S9 at Tokyo Lumix Base last weekend. The reasons to buy S9 are size/weight, SNS, and color inside and outside.
. . .
Now, move to my country, Thailand. 3 reviewers went to Japan.
The first reviewer is professional videographer, wedding and events. After he saw S9 spec, 1 card slot & video recording limit, he knew exactly and immediately who was S9 for. Not for his wedding/event pro works, but for taking short video clip and quick sharing on social media. And he evaluated and used based on what it is, and had a lot of fun. He didn't rant why he couldn't take 90 mins video.
Another respectful reviewer, a veteran Canon/OM professional photographer, also reviewed S9. He actually saw S9 "two weeks" before the press event, and he didn't appreciate it then. But after he spent 3-4 days in Japan, and almost a weeklong vacation after that, his view completely changed and he ordered S9 plus few lens for this own use.
He said this is the new concept for content creating, similar to when people changed from film (you don't see your output on spot) to digital (you see on the back of the screen). Now, S9 with real time LUT allowed you to see the final output right away, without editing after. You only appreciated when you really used it for what it is, not what it is not.
He said after using S9 with LUT, it's hard for him to go back to old ways of shooting -> downloading -> editing on computer -> sharing anymore. It's what SNS concept is. On his next outing, other cameras will stay at home.
It's not about which camera has the max spec, it's about which address your particular needs. He said most companies build a sword for samurai, S9 is a knife for a normal person. Sometimes, a samurai needs a simple knife too.
. . .
I read one Japanese person tweeted that for Lumix line, G stands for General, while S stands for Specialized. It seems his understanding is correct.
Now, SNS is not for everyone. And whether it will be commercially successful or not is to be seen. But pre-order in my country points toward very early success.
Now people start to order Sigma i-series before getting S9. Some of them are already out of stock.
If you want a full feature pro camera in a good price, why don't get S5II. But if you want a complete S5II feature in small S9 body, you will not get it, at least for now.
#LumixS9"
xaviergut
LMF-Patron
Markuswelder
Well-Known Member
He he he he. If I keep reading reviews, I''ll end up with one myself. Then the Wife will surely kill meMarkus, please stop it or I will order a S9 in the next 30 minutes
Nevyn72
LMF-Patron Gold
Here the same... But as long they dont fix the recording time to at least 30 minutes I can resist the GAS.
I just finished that video. It is really very interesting. All 3 different parts.
And there might be a rumor bomb exploding there too.
But one step after the other....
This is a live stream which was made a few minutes before Gerald published his own video.
It seems that there was on social media a very vivid discussions about things Gerald Undone said about the state of product reviews in general. Again, this social media discussion was days before he published his video and before this livestream and his video was basically meant as an answer to all that questions and discussion in his social media channels.
Back to the live stream. First part and first guest is Gerald Undone. That interview takes around 72 minutes. Very interesting.
At around 1:12 another YouTuber is interviewed, who was at the S9 event in Tokyo. Other YouTubers who attended also Tokyo this year have been als in that live chat by the way. He talked about what most YouTubers thought during the presentation. At around 1:30 he sais that this Tokyo event was probably (his guess) not planned for the S9, but for a different camera. Who knows what Panasonic forced to change plans and products presented in Tokyo... I am sure the rumor mills will start now...
The third part is an interview with a YouTuber who covers everything about BlackMagick Design products. That starts at 1:39.
A really interesting live stream and all 3 interviews are really worth watching. Do not miss that.