Thom Hogan article about gaining market share

[dirk]

In a recent article Thom Hogan wrote about Canon's push for APS-C bodies to be able to keep its 50% market share.

Although it is about Canon, the outcome is the same for every brand. If you want to gain market share, you need to offer cheaper products and then make good marketing.

As you know I say this since the beginning of L-Mount alliance. It is good to see now a movement with other brands and I hope that Panasonic, Sigma and Leica will read this too.

Canon's Increasing APS-C Commitment | Sans Mirror | Thom Hogan

Canon's more committed to APS-C than Nikon and Sony

sansmirror.com

 

[xaviergut]

I don't know, Dirk, I have the impression that the Lumix S9 is way better than all this new apsc cameras from Nikon, Canon or Sony and the price now in the used market is about 1000€...

I just hope that people realize that and it brings more customers to the L-mount system.

 

[dirk]

I don't know, Dirk, I have the impression that the Lumix S9 is way better than all this new apsc cameras from Nikon, Canon or Sony and the price now in the used market is about 1000€...

I just hope that people realize that and it brings more customers to the L-mount system.

We need something with EVF in the 800-1100 USD range list price. Fullframe would be great.

But if this is not possible with fullframe, then an old and cheap 24 MP APS-C sensor with EVF is better than nothing to gain market share.

 

[dirk]

There are already enough APS-C lenses from Sigma available in L-Mount. Therefore the lens side is not a problem at all.

 

[Nevyn72]

The question is, do you need an evf for the new users who are buying the camera's at the lower end of the scale?

It looks like Panasonic, but also other brands don't think so. And i actually agree with them

 

[dirk]

It looks like Panasonic, but also other brands don't think so. And i actually agree with them

They all offer for a new target group versions without EVF. But they still offer all also models with EVF.

 

[Nevyn72]

They all offer for a new target group versions without EVF. But they still offer all also models with EVF.

Just like Panasonic, the S5 offers excellent value for money.

 

[dirk]

It is not only about list price. Some people will refuse at the beginning fullframe, if it is too big.

Get them with a small and cheap entry level APS-C camera and have a fullframe upgrade path with the same lens mount.

Nikon, Sony and Canon do it. They all have significant bigger market share thanks to this.

Why is L-Mount not trying the same successful strategy?

 

[dirk]

Even Fuji has tiny and big body sizes. With and without EVF.

 

[Jan.Wedekind]

I really don't see Pansonic adding APS-C given their investment into M43. If anything, they should really release a small, compact, affordable M43 body (besides the G100D).

 

[dirk]

I really don't see Pansonic adding APS-C given their investment into M43. If anything, they should really release a small, compact, affordable M43 body (besides the G100D).

As a user I agree.

But for LMount, someone has to offer a smaller body with EVF. Sony is able to do this. Therefore it is technically possible even with a fullframe sensor.

I mentioned APSC only, because with APSC it is cheaper to produce.

I do not care which LMount brand is producing it. My guess is that Panasonic has the most experience in it because of MFT.

 

[GeorgeHudetz]

I'd love to see a compact 44 MP FF body for L-mount. The resolution in crop-mode would be "good enough" and then I could mount those diminutive Sigma crop lenses to it for travel, and still mount highly resolving FF lenses to it for hiking/landscape. In fact, I may just do this with the S1RII (never fully took that idea seriously with the S1R due to it's size & weight) but if there were a 500g body with that sensor, wow. That would be awesome.

Of course, that does exist in the form of the (60 MP) a7cr, but at $3k I couldn't justify it as a travel body, nor would I want it as my only body.

Which brings me to wonder out loud: Are high-res bodies intentionally overpriced? Are the manufactures milking those of us who want high-res sensors by only delivering them in premium bodies? Could somebody build a $2k compact FF body with a 44 MP sensor? Even if it wasn't BSI and lacked a mechanical shutter?

I'm not sure if that's possible now, but it might be in the future. Such a body would make crop-sensor bodies with FF mounts seem quaint. And if it looks to be possible in the near future, I could completely understand why Panasonic would pass on making a L-mount crop-sensor body at this point in history.

 

[Quentinquirelino]

We need something with EVF in the 800-1100 USD range list price. Fullframe would be great.

But if this is not possible with fullframe, then an old and cheap 24 MP APS-C sensor with EVF is better than nothing to gain market share.

The S9 and S5 are currently in that price range.

You also have to see, that the Canon strategy is helping them gaining market share, but it also hurts their margin. For Canon it's part of the marketing strategy to be marked leader. But that doesn't mean that's a good strategy for every other manufacturer too gain market share at every cost.

Even Sony doesn't follow the strategy and they are competing well with Canon. Sony has only the ZV-E10ii in that price range and that one is more expensive than Panasonic's G100D or about the same as the G97 or S5.

Also Fuji doesn't really offer much for under $1000. The cheapest camera with evf is the X-T50, which starts at $1399.

Basically the only manufacturer following that Canon strategy is Canon.

 

[Nevyn72]

Canon Lenses are the Inkt for their printers. Vendor Lock in, as much as possible. Yeah I know they allow a bit of third-party for APS-C, but i'm very happy that in L-mount the situation is now completly different.

 

[AlanC]

Which brings me to wonder out loud: Are high-res bodies intentionally overpriced? Are the manufactures milking those of us who want high-res sensors by only delivering them in premium bodies? Could somebody build a $2k compact FF body with a 44 MP sensor? Even if it wasn't BSI and lacked a mechanical shutter?

The Sigma fp and fp L are basically identical apart from the sensor: the fp is 24MP and the fp L is 60MP. In the UK the fp costs £1,599 and the fp L costs £1,999.

When Sony first introduced the A7CR it cost £3,199. They've currently dropped the price to £2,649 and also have a £200 cashback offer bringing it down to £2,449. So they're either taking one heck of a loss or they massively overpriced the camera; given Sigma's pricing I'm inclined to think it's the latter.

 

[Travis Butler]

The Sigma fp and fp L are basically identical apart from the sensor: the fp is 24MP and the fp L is 60MP. In the UK the fp costs £1,599 and the fp L costs £1,999.

When Sony first introduced the A7CR it cost £3,199. They've currently dropped the price to £2,649 and also have a £200 cashback offer bringing it down to £2,449. So they're either taking one heck of a loss or they massively overpriced the camera; given Sigma's pricing I'm inclined to think it's the latter.

Or else the sensor was expensive to make at first, and the price has come down as they've worked out production bugs and ramped up manufacturing.

I mean, I don't like Sony. But I do try to be fair, and it really is a Thing that you can bring down production costs as you work out production efficiencies, pay off development costs, and the like. From what I understand, that's especially true of anything based off a silicon chip, whether it's an Intel CPU or a camera sensor - expensive to set up the production line, early production glitches that lower yields and thus increase the cost per usable chip... and then increased yields as production settles down, the setup costs are paid off, and the price can come down.

 

[AlanC]

Or else the sensor was expensive to make at first, and the price has come down as they've worked out production bugs and ramped up manufacturing.

The Sigma fp L has never been particularly expensive. It was announced in 2021 at $2499 (DPReview) and still costs the same now (B&H). The same is true for the fp which launched at $1899 (DPReview) and still costs the same (B&H). The first Sony camera to use the 60MP sensor was the A7Riv in 2019 which cost $3,500 at launch (DPReview), the price remained the same for the A7Riva in 2021 (DPReview) and increased to $3,900 for the A7Rv (DPReview). OK, the A7R series are far more capable cameras and the A7Rv saw some significant upgrades, but it still looks to me like Sony are pricing according to what the market will bear rather than the cost of the sensor.

One somewhat odd thing is that Sigma somehow got access to the 60MP sensor in 2021 before it became generally available from Sony Semiconductor as the IMX455 in 2023.