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S9, S5, S5ii/x, S1Rii... what's next?

dirk

dirk

LMF-Founder
Administrator
Last week was really good for L-Mount. Both the Sigma BF and the S1Rii give us new, very good, modern and competitive choices.

I wonder what will be next in the Lumix L-Mount line. As far as I can see it, we have currently the following Lumix cameras for different target groups (always current street price):

Lumix S9 - entry level hybrid (around 1450€)

For people who do not need an EVF, but an ILC. Video and photo oriented. Lower budget, but desire for fullframe. Probably the next step after a smartphone, to get more serious with video/and or photo. Entry into the Lumix FF line. LUTs and PDAF available. Price falls continuously.

Lumix S5 - entry level hybrid (around 1200€)

The S5 (D) is still produced. The (currently) cheapest entry into Lumix fullframe with EVF. Only DFD focus, but the rest still excellent. Target group of S5 are people, who are interested photo and video with fullframe, but on a budget. Same like S9, but with EVF, without LUTs & PDAF.

Lumix S5ii/x - mid level hybrid (around 1700€)

All you need for photo and video with 24MP. Clear added value/upgrade from the S5 via PDAF, cooling, 3.6MP EVF, LUTs and new FW updates. Without competition in that price range.

Lumix S1Rii - high level hybrid (list price 3600€)
The newest edition. In my view the best you can get, if you want hybrid with 44MP and the best bang for the buck. No real competition with these features, especially not at this price range.


What is missing?

This is all speculation, but looking at the S1Rii, I think Panasonic is well situated in the high end market and in my view does not need urgently a S1H successor. For me, the S1Rii is a replacement for both, the S1R and S1H. The S5ii is the replacement of the S1.

In my view, the missing product is an entry level model in the price range of 800€-1000€, smaller than the normal S5/S5ii. Of course with EVF, max. 24 MP and without all video features, to make it cheaper. I.e. no 4k recording, no cooling system etc. A camera which is focused more on photographers. It will be still hybrid, but entry level hybrid. Of course with PDAF. Basically a less capable S9, but with an EVF.

What do you think?
 
dirk said:
Last week was really good for L-Mount. Both the Sigma BF and the S1Rii give us new, very good, modern and competitive choices.

I wonder what will be next in the Lumix L-Mount line. As far as I can see it, we have currently the following Lumix cameras for different target groups (always current street price):

Lumix S9 - entry level hybrid (around 1450€)

For people who do not need an EVF, but an ILC. Video and photo oriented. Lower budget, but desire for fullframe. Probably the next step after a smartphone, to get more serious with video/and or photo. Entry into the Lumix FF line. LUTs and PDAF available. Price falls continuously.

Lumix S5 - entry level hybrid (around 1200€)

The S5 (D) is still produced. The (currently) cheapest entry into Lumix fullframe with EVF. Only DFD focus, but the rest still excellent. Target group of S5 are people, who are interested photo and video with fullframe, but on a budget. Same like S9, but with EVF, without LUTs & PDAF.

Lumix S5ii/x - mid level hybrid (around 1700€)

All you need for photo and video with 24MP. Clear added value/upgrade from the S5 via PDAF, cooling, 3.6MP EVF, LUTs and new FW updates. Without competition in that price range.

Lumix S1Rii - high level hybrid (list price 3600€)
The newest edition. In my view the best you can get, if you want hybrid with 44MP and the best bang for the buck. No real competition with these features, especially not at this price range.


What is missing?

This is all speculation, but looking at the S1Rii, I think Panasonic is well situated in the high end market and in my view does not need urgently a S1H successor. For me, the S1Rii is a replacement for both, the S1R and S1H. The S5ii is the replacement of the S1.

In my view, the missing product is an entry level model in the price range of 800€-1000€, smaller than the normal S5/S5ii. Of course with EVF, max. 24 MP and without all video features, to make it cheaper. I.e. no 4k recording, no cooling system etc. A camera which is focused more on photographers. It will be still hybrid, but entry level hybrid. Of course with PDAF. Basically a less capable S9, but with an EVF.

What do you think?
Click to expand...
The next camera is expected at NAB2025 (https://www.nabshow.com/), so this will be a high end videocamera. Perhaps a boxcam, or the EVA2.

The S1H was Netflix certified, but the S1Rii cannot because it doesn't have timecode.

It might have the same sensor as the S1R, but the focus will be high-quality video production. And hopefully B-Raw
 
Nevyn72 said:
The next camera is expected at NAB2025 (https://www.nabshow.com/), so this will be a high end videocamera. Perhaps a boxcam, or the EVA2.

The S1H was Netflix certified, but the S1Rii cannot because it doesn't have timecode.

It might have the same sensor as the S1R, but the focus will be high-quality video production.
Click to expand...

This sounds more like Panasonic wants to create an even higher level camera for video (only?). Probably very expensive (>5000€). It does not sound like this would be a "normal" Lumix camera, like all mentioned models above?

I think there has to be more in the pipeline for 2025, to increase market share significantly.

Mainstream want to have small and light bodies with EVF. And cheap. Panasonic does not offer this yet in fullframe.
 
dirk said:
This sounds more like Panasonic wants to create an even higher level camera for video (only?). Probably very expensive (>5000€). It does not sound like this would be a "normal" Lumix camera, like all mentioned models above?

I think there has to be more in the pipeline for 2025, to increase market share significantly.

Mainstream want to have small and light bodies with EVF. And cheap. Panasonic does not offer this yet in fullframe.
Click to expand...
I would not be suprised that the price is around the S1R (at least I hope so)

Also I expect new camera's from Blackmagic, and hopefully DJI in the L-mount Alliance
 
I think the market is going in the cinema gear way, in terms of anamorphic and cinema lenses, and of course cameras. The camera that John says could start a cinema line for Lumix, like the cinema line of the Sony FX3 or the Canon C80.
 
A “missing” model is a full-frame camera with high sensor readout speed (higher than latest model) & fast AF & pre-capture suitable for sports/action/wildlife. With a very good EVF & screen. 24MP would be OK, especially if low noise & DR is above average, but somewhat higher resolution would be OK. Very good 4K & 6K video is enough; 8K is not a priority.

So, essentially a camera like the one they just announced, but more suitable for sports/action, with perhaps very good internal 6K video instead of 8K video to help keep the price down.

However I don’t know if a sensor necessary to achieve the above is available to Panasonic at a price low enough for them to produce a competitive product.
 
PJD said:
A “missing” model is a full-frame camera with high sensor readout speed (higher than latest model) & fast AF & pre-capture suitable for sports/action. With a very good EVF & screen. 24MP would be OK, especially if low noise & DR is above average, but somewhat higher resolution would be OK. Very good 4K & 6K video is enough; 8K is not a priority.

So, essentially a camera like the one they just announced, but more suitable for sports/action, with perhaps very good internal 6K video instead of 8K video to help keep the price down.

However I don’t know if a sensor necessary to achieve the above is available to Panasonic at a price low enough for them to produce a competitive product.
Click to expand...
The sensor for the S1Rii will do, is also in the DJI Ronin 8K
 
PJD said:
Will do what?
Click to expand...
For a Boxcam or EVA2. If they want a really good sensor than the might use the one from BMD... But than de camera will be out of my reach for sure...
 
Nevyn72 said:
For a Boxcam or EVA2. If they want a really good sensor than the might use the one from BMD... But than de camera will be out of my reach for sure...
Click to expand...
The main point of my post was the need for higher readout speed, not higher resolution. For sports/action/wildlife photography and 4K/6K video (not 8K etc).
 
dirk said:
...
In my view, the missing product is an entry level model in the price range of 800€-1000€, smaller than the normal S5/S5ii. Of course with EVF, max. 24 MP and without all video features, to make it cheaper. I.e. no 4k recording, no cooling system etc. A camera which is focused more on photographers. It will be still hybrid, but entry level hybrid. Of course with PDAF. Basically a less capable S9, but with an EVF.

What do you think?
Click to expand...
I don't think we will get such a camera. I also don't think a photographer oriented camera without 4k recording would be cheaper. If Panasonic will release a sub 1000 € camera, than it will be a Vloggercam, because that's what selling most in the current market.

The most I could imagine would be a S5 in a S9 housing. Maybe even without IBIS, like the G100D. Talking about the G100D, even for MFT, Panasonic doesn't offer much for 1000 €. The S5 is probably the most entery we will get in the foreseeable future from Panasonic.
 
PJD said:
A “missing” model is a full-frame camera with high sensor readout speed (higher than latest model) & fast AF & pre-capture suitable for sports/action/wildlife. With a very good EVF & screen. 24MP would be OK, especially if low noise & DR is above average, but somewhat higher resolution would be OK. Very good 4K & 6K video is enough; 8K is not a priority.

So, essentially a camera like the one they just announced, but more suitable for sports/action, with perhaps very good internal 6K video instead of 8K video to help keep the price down.

However I don’t know if a sensor necessary to achieve the above is available to Panasonic at a price low enough for them to produce a competitive product.
Click to expand...
I think you are describing something similar like the Nikon Z6iii, with a semi-stacked sensor to be fast enough for sports/action... the price is now about 2.200 $ (it used to be way more expensive when it was released)
 
xaviergut said:
I think you are describing something similar like the Nikon Z6iii, with a semi-stacked sensor to be fast enough for sports/action... the price is now about 2.200 $ (it used to be way more expensive when it was released)
Click to expand...
But the sensor of the Z6III isn't much faster compared to the S1RII, but the Z6III still has reduced DR in comparison.

PJD said:
The main point of my post was the need for higher readout speed, not higher resolution. For sports/action/wildlife photography and 4K/6K video (not 8K etc).
Click to expand...
I think the S1RII sensor would fit very well in a cinematic camera. The read out for video is about the same compared to stacked Sensor cameras, like Z8 or A1II, but it's geared down to in 30 fps and beyond, probably for reducing heat development. In a better cooled body it would be very competitive for video. But photography is another topic.
 
dirk said:
Last week was really good for L-Mount. Both the Sigma BF and the S1Rii give us new, very good, modern and competitive choices.

I wonder what will be next in the Lumix L-Mount line. As far as I can see it, we have currently the following Lumix cameras for different target groups (always current street price):

Lumix S9 - entry level hybrid (around 1450€)

For people who do not need an EVF, but an ILC. Video and photo oriented. Lower budget, but desire for fullframe. Probably the next step after a smartphone, to get more serious with video/and or photo. Entry into the Lumix FF line. LUTs and PDAF available. Price falls continuously.

Lumix S5 - entry level hybrid (around 1200€)

The S5 (D) is still produced. The (currently) cheapest entry into Lumix fullframe with EVF. Only DFD focus, but the rest still excellent. Target group of S5 are people, who are interested photo and video with fullframe, but on a budget. Same like S9, but with EVF, without LUTs & PDAF.

Lumix S5ii/x - mid level hybrid (around 1700€)

All you need for photo and video with 24MP. Clear added value/upgrade from the S5 via PDAF, cooling, 3.6MP EVF, LUTs and new FW updates. Without competition in that price range.

Lumix S1Rii - high level hybrid (list price 3600€)
The newest edition. In my view the best you can get, if you want hybrid with 44MP and the best bang for the buck. No real competition with these features, especially not at this price range.


What is missing?

This is all speculation, but looking at the S1Rii, I think Panasonic is well situated in the high end market and in my view does not need urgently a S1H successor. For me, the S1Rii is a replacement for both, the S1R and S1H. The S5ii is the replacement of the S1.

In my view, the missing product is an entry level model in the price range of 800€-1000€, smaller than the normal S5/S5ii. Of course with EVF, max. 24 MP and without all video features, to make it cheaper. I.e. no 4k recording, no cooling system etc. A camera which is focused more on photographers. It will be still hybrid, but entry level hybrid. Of course with PDAF. Basically a less capable S9, but with an EVF.

What do you think?
Click to expand...
I can see where a lower model might fit in but to be honest that space should be filled by the S9, which is massively over-priced for what it offers. No shutter, viewfinder or sealing, it should cost less than the S5D (the current "official" lower end model). APS-C would lower the price a bit but these days it doesn't seem to do so to much of an extent so it's probably better to leave the L-mount as FF only. I don't see any company bringing in a sub-$900 camera in the L-mount.
 
Quentinquirelino said:
But the sensor of the Z6III isn't much faster compared to the S1RII, but the Z6III still has reduced DR in comparison.
Click to expand...
Yes, yes, of course that S1Rii is a better camera than the Nikon Z6iii, but the Nikon is a mid-range camera and the Lumix is a flagship.

I thought that Peter was saying that in L-mount is missing a fast action and sports camera not too expensive.

I would buy inmediatly a S1Rii for 2.200 €, which is the price now of the Nikon Z6iii.
 
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