News S1Rii - Read all about it!

[Travis Butler]

Now while it sounds like easy, I myself as a software engineer know we shouldn't just assume it is "easy". What people say it's a "simple one-line change" usually causes us lots of headaches when we make the changes.

Hah!

Amen, brother.

 

[GeorgeHudetz]

He also showed warping in stills mode, again due to the sensor readout speed & ES.

So yes, as others have stated, the S1RII is not *quite* a do-it-all camera like an a1II or a Z8, due to the lack of a stacked sensor.

I'm a little put-off by this. I've been living with an camera (S1R) that did not measure up for stills of moving subjects for so long, I'm reluctant to buy a new camera that still falls short. Of course, the S1RII is *far* better than the S1R for action photography, but psychologically, I'm just not sure I can pull the trigger. Once bitten, I suppose. I'd be happy to spend the additional $500 or whatever to get the stacked sensor. Although I would never pay Sony a1II prices.

Probably will buy it in the end, but yes, I'm conflicted.

BTW, before others comment, I openly admit I'm probably being overly neurotic. There's a YT'er out there who mounted an S1RII on a gimbal, and then mounted that on a car, and then chased a horse & rider running along the side of the road. It looks fantastic.

Likewise, that press shot posted earlier in this thread of a gecko snagging a moth mid-air is stunning. Probably captured using pre-capture, which means ES. So even if there is warping of the tounge, it just doesn't matter. At least in that shot. And that was captured with an older, Sigma 120-300 F2.8 "HSM" lens, that had to be adapted. Impressive indeed.

So yeah, get out of your chair and capture some scenes, I suppose is what I should be thinking.

 

[Oíche]

I'd be happy to spend the additional $500 or whatever to get the stacked sensor. Although I would never pay for a Sony a1II.

Probably will buy it in the end, but yes, I'm conflicted.

It'll not be stealing from those who need stacked sensors for sure and it's no sports/action AF flagship either. Gordon says the detection is better than S5ii but he probably used it years back on earlier firmware, to me it looks about the same but I think S5ii AF is really good (not the flagship best) so that should not put you off AND hopefully they'll continue to improve the AF code.

Indeed S1R having such a relatively short lifespan and losing ~75% value is pretty sore, especially for an expensive camera. I'm looking to get 10+ years from S5ii

 

[GeorgeHudetz]

Indeed S1R having such a relatively short lifespan and losing ~75% value is pretty sore, especially for an expensive camera. I'm looking to get 10+ years from S5ii

Actually, I think you have that exactly backwards. The S1R has been on the market for 6+ years, and I'm sure people will still be using them four years from now. And, as best i can tell, the S1R used prices are higher than the Sony A7RIV, which was introduced the same year. Of course, now with the new S1RII on the market, it's possible used prices of the S1R will fall. But then maybe just the opposite will happen, given that Panasonic has given up on the premium, large body in the new version. I think the S1 & S1R will be considered classics and be remain desirable for quite some time, at least for people who can live within the limitations of DfD.

I actually feel very good about my purchase of the S1R from a build quality & overall value. It's just that it falls short for action photography, which, at this point, I'd like to do more of.

 

[Oíche]

Actually, I think you have that exactly backwards.

I doubt it, going by what you get for them today.

How much was S1R new?. £2899 GBP or so new back in 1999 and here is a quote for one in excellent condition... £820

Most other cameras from any brand probably have similar depreciation and values will further drop.

 

[GeorgeHudetz]

Here, used S1Rs (from MBP, etc) are asking $1700. But I do stand corrected - Sony A7R IV is perhaps worth $200 more.

Anyway, we shall see, but I don't see the S5 (of any generation) inspiring the kind of loyalty and affection that the S1 series do. They lack the "timeless" aspect that the first-gen S1 bodies possess. Nor do I think the S1RII will have that timeless aura. Like the S5II, it's main claim-to-fame that it is the best value amongst it's peers. Which is fine, but that's not what is needed to inspire long-term appeal that transcends ability. 911s retain their value. Caymans, not so much. It's just how it is.

In fact, given how much the abilities of camera bodies have evolved since the S1 bodies were introduced, it's amazing that a used S1R has any value at all. Again, all back to the intrinsic goodness of the design.

 

[Nevyn72]

If you want to know why this camera is also very special for video, don't watch the nerdy stuff from Gerald, or some others.

You only need @Richard Wong his video to have a very deep knowledge for what it technically can do, and than see this video for what you can artistically can do.

And it really looks like they used the Ronin 8K sensor, what I presumed before...

 

[Pete_W]

If you want to know why this camera is also very special for video, don't watch the nerdy stuff from Gerald, or some others.

You only need @Richard Wong his video to have a very deep knowledge for what it technically can do, and than see this video for what you can artistically can do.

Excellent point, John.

 

[Nevyn72]

If you want to know why this camera get such a good review, check here:


The link starts half into the video

 

[xaviergut]

Here a very interesting interview with the Lumix people (Matt Frazer) about the S1Rii. The guys of cined.com really know what they are talking about

 

[dirk]

How much was S1R new?. £2899 GBP or so new back in 1999 and here is a quote for one in excellent condition... £820

What you show is an offer for your S1R of a dealer. That is not a fair comparison. The dealer wants to have a margin to resell it.

In Germany you will not get a S1R below 1.500€


For those people who want to use the S1Rii for video, they should pay more attention to the reviewers who do video only and as a profession every day. We have several YT reviews of these people linked in this thread. Just scroll back.

 

[dirk]

If you want to know why this camera get such a good review, check here:


The link starts half into the video

Watch the end from minute 17 on specifically.

 

[Pete_W]

Here a very interesting interview with the Lumix people (Matt Frazer) about the S1Rii. The guys of cined.com really know what they are talking about

Thanks for posting this Xavier! It's a really great interview, lots of information about features, their design decisions, etc. Well worth watching.

 

[dirk]

Here a very interesting interview with the Lumix people (Matt Frazer) about the S1Rii. The guys of cined.com really know what they are talking about

This is a great video. All questions about the S1Rii answered by Matt Frazer. He is working in business development at Panasonic Lumix USA and is involved in product planning for Lumix. Maybe I will pin this interview later in an extra thread.

There are a few points in that interview which are for me personally worth to point out. Always looking for my kind of use cases (focus on photography), others might find other points more important.

1. Hybrid cameras only

The original S1R was in my view a camera for photographers only. The Lumix S1 was the one, which was better for video work. As far as I remeber, this was also the way how the S1R was pushed in the marketing.​

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This has changed now. The S1Rii is not just a hybrid camera, it is in my interpretation of that interview a video camera with nice to have features for photographers. This is a difference in mind shift for the S1R line. That is nothing bad per se. But it was said, that Lumix focuses on hybrid cameras and the S1Rii would be a video camera. I do not think that there will ever be again a Lumix fullframe camera for photography only.​

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This is a shift in the market which every brand is doing since a couple of years. Video features will bring advantages to photography too, for sure. But you will not be able to buy in the future any kind of camera, which is not hybrid. If you want a photography only camera, you need to buy a Leica M.​

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The reason why I mention this here is, that this can (does not have to) have consequences for future Lumix LMount products. If you offer video features in a camera, you need cooling etc. This makes a camera bigger than without video functionality. The higher the video is (4k, 6k, 8k) the more you need CF Express cards to handle these huge file sizes. Same for bigger batteries. This all makes a camera body bigger. I personally hope, that Panasonic finds a good compromise to be able to offer in the future also smaller L-Mount bodies with internal EVF. We will see. I am very curious about the rumors of an April product launch.​

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2. The sensor of the S1Rii is bigger than 24x36mm

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This was very interesting for me. Thanks to the bigger sensor, they are able to reduce this "wobbling" in videos when using electronic stabilization. It could be, that the best results will only be achieved with Lumix lenses, because they know their distortion behaviour and can easier implement this in their firmware algorythms.​

3. The Lumix-flow up will be a hit

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I am not a videographer. But the idea behind this app is groundbreaking to get in touch with new customers / smartphone users, who have not yet a camera for video. They can use that app already with their smartphone, learn with it how to make their videos more professional and time efficient. Of course they will be interested later on at least to test the Lumix cameras. Very smart move and very good for the market share of Lumix. Therefore very good for all of us.​

I am really impressed by the thought-process of the S1Rii. It was a good idea to wait with the launch until they can use this new sensor. This sensor makes really sense for this target group.

I am torn, because better AF tracking for sports, 10fps with mechanical shutter and 44MP to crop later on some sport shots would be helpful for me. But I will wait until I am sure what else will come, whch could be smaller/lighter and with less MP. But if that will not happen, the S1Rii could be the camera I would buy longterm to replace my S5ii.

But maybe Lumix brings some surprises in MFT too? Life is unfair... Too many choices...

 

[Pete_W]

There are a few point in that interview which are for me personally worth to point out. Always looking for my kind of use cases (focus on photography), others might find other points more important.

Yes, lots of good information.

There was a little section towards the end (from 42:00 onwards) where he said they had "addressed some of the photo concerns people had in the past..." such as:

• 40fps burst with a blackout-free viewfinder
• full 10fps mechanical shutter
• the constant preview when you autofocus no longer makes the viewfinder go bright and then dark

 

[dirk]

Yes, lots of good information.

There was a little section towards the end (from 42:00 onwards) where he said they had "addressed some of the photo concerns people had in the past..." such as:

• 40fps burst with a blackout-free viewfinder
• full 10fps mechanical shutter
• the constant preview when you autofocus no longer makes the viewfinder go bright and then dark

Yes, these are really interesting feature for me. I shoot the field hockey games of my son. But you have to be aware, that at 40fps, you can only shoot 1-3 seconds. Then the buffer is full. The buffer is not very big in the S1Rii. BUT I would never use 40fps for sports. Nobody wants to check afterwards these thousands of images.

For very special situations, 20fps is all you need. But in 99% of the cases, 10fps is the maximum I need and field hockey is a very fast sport with erratic, non predictable movements.

The main problem with field hockey is the AF. Because the kids attack each other and the kid with the ball is often hidden behind another kid. Very difficult for AF tracking. Normally the AF jumps to the next kid. This is why I do not use AF tracking. In most cases AFS, seldom AFC. Never with human or face detection. If you know the sport, you know when there could be an interesting situation and you shoot 5-10 images in these 1-2 seconds

 

[Pete_W]

The main problem with field hockey is the AF. Because the kids attack each other and the kid with the ball is often hidden behind another kid. Very difficult for AF tracking. Normally the AF jumps to the next kid. This is why I do not use AF tracking. In most cases AFS, seldom AFC. Never with human or face detection. If you know the sport, you know when there could be an interesting situation and you shoot 5-10 images in these 1-2 seconds

Yes, I can see that zone focusing would be preferred for a sport like field hockey.

I was using burst for train photography but also did not like culling so many images all of which looked almost the same. I now just use BBF, half-press focus turned off, in AFC and train-detect mode, and fire off shots. I end up with 5 or 6 shots, much easier to cull.

 

[xaviergut]

Yes, I can see that zone focusing would be preferred for a sport like field hockey.

I was using burst for train photography but also did not like culling so many images all of which looked almost the same. I now just use BBF, half-press focus turned off, in AFC and train-detect mode, and fire off shots. I end up with 5 or 6 shots, much easier to cull.

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[dirk]

I found this image in the press material for the S1Rii. I find it interesting how much the L-Mount system evolved. Great visualisation. Bear in mind that only Lumix products are visible on this image.

 

[robin0112358]

My take is that this camera is an excellent upgrade to the S5 Mk II in all respects. Only the name is wrong.

A short list of what has improved:

• 44.3 mp sensor
• hi-res 177mp mode that works hand-held
• 5.76 mp OLED viewfinder
• hybrid tilt / fold back screen
• 14 stops of dynamic range
• 40fps blackout-free burst mode with AF tracking
• 1.5s pre-release shutter
• false colour display
• ergonomic improvements, e.g. video mode on its own dial, recessed back dial
• dynamic range expansion
• 10fps mechanical carbon fiber shutter - closes for lens changes
• constant preview no longer flickers
• increased video resolutions and frame rates
• ProRes RAW internal recording
• reduced HDMI lag
• oversampled video reduces moiré
• e-stabilisation mode
• Lumix Flow app turns phone into external control monitor

One significant oversight is the single CFexpress B slot. Should have been dual slot so that a redundant file is available no matter the video mode.

I doubt this will convince Canon Z8 or Sony fans, but once the price has come down a bit it will be a worthy recommendation.