What's new
L-MOUNT Forum

Register a free account now!

If you are registered, you get access to the members only section, can participate in the buy & sell second hand forum and last but not least you can reserve your preferred username before someone else takes it.

Test/ First Impression S1RII does birds

Thanks for the comments, and I must say I hadn't thought about these diffraction issues (probably too used to the "very limited" capabilities of medium formats (X1D, X2D, H5-D60 CCD, etc.).
I'll opt for the 1.4x then.

Now that I'm getting the 500mm (maybe tomorrow), I'm going to be excited, as I don't have an L-mount camera at the moment (I sold the SL2S a long time ago).

S1II vs. S1RII ?!?!
I'm fascinated by the performance of the recent Lumix S1II and S1RII (reviews), and I'm really hesitant...
There are two of us who photograph and film: my wife (mainly M11 + iPhone for video) and I (currently mainly X1DII, having sold our X2D before it was depreciated with the upcoming arrival of the X2DII, and nothing at all for video). We enjoy subjects such as "the street," "the landscapes," and I'm waiting for the 500 to get back into action and wildlife photography, especially on hikes.
The capabilities of the S1II (high ISO in photo and video, AF, etc., innovative semi-stacked sensor) and those of the S1RII (resolution, but we already have the M11, 8K in video, cropping capabilities, etc.) are jostling around in my poor head, and I change my mind several times a day ;).
We would like to know if any experiences with these two cameras with Leica M lenses (18mm, 28mm 5.6 vintage, 35mm F2 apo, etc.) could be shared...
Thanks in advance and congratulations again for this Forum (the emails that notify replies, the fluidity: a dream!)
 
ALAIN said:
Oh! Thanks for this very interesting link: animal photography, landscapes and wildlife, equipment, emotion...
I noticed the constant use of the x1.4... interesting, is the x2 less efficient (weight, loss of brightness, loss of comfort for the photographer and the camera (AF...))... and what's more, it's the 24MP camera! So if the x2 already penalizes the 24MP, it should disrupt the S1RII's 44MP even more, it seems to me...
What exactly do you think?
Click to expand...
I do have a 1.4 and 2.0 TCs. Both Sigma and one Panasonic 2x.
I might sell the Panasonic off, because after some firmware updates I see no difference between the Sigma and Pana 2x anymore. But I will test this one final last tome soon.

Back to why 2x TC might not so popular for long tele focal length. In my experience 1000mm focal length is difficult to handle. If you shoot on a sunny day the heat is getting your enemy. This can be because of the heated air close to the surface or even around your lens hood.
Initially it sounds great to have 1000mm focal length but the situations when you can really use it are nice and by most cases you shall get close to the subject you want to take a picture of. And then the 1.4 TC is a much nicer tool ;-)
 
I'm going to follow this very "enlightened" advice: x1.4!
It seems to be a bit like with a telescope: you can always increase the magnification, but ultimately, observation is less comfortable, or even impossible (turbulence, focusing, etc.).

The 500mm 5.6 Sigma has just arrived, and I'm almost certain I'll choose a Lumix S1RII camera, given my use and my beautiful Leica M lenses.

I usually use two setups for planetary observation:
- either: 180apo Leica R 2.8 + 1st Leica R apo extender + 2nd Leica R apo extender + sometimes R/M adapter + focuser glued to a bored M cap + 7mm wide-field telescope eyepiece; magnification = (180x2x2)/7 = 102 with an inverted image!!!
- or: 180apo Leica R 2.8 + 1st Leica R apo extender + 2nd Leica R apo extender + TO-R 12.5mm accessory; magnification = (180x2x2)/12.5 = 58 with an upright image!!!
I was thinking of doing something similar with the Sigma 500, but I'm hampered by the focus, which requires mounting it on a camera body.
Is there a trick (for astrophotographers) for controlling this focus without a camera body?
 
ALAIN said:
I'm going to follow this very "enlightened" advice: x1.4!
It seems to be a bit like with a telescope: you can always increase the magnification, but ultimately, observation is less comfortable, or even impossible (turbulence, focusing, etc.).

The 500mm 5.6 Sigma has just arrived, and I'm almost certain I'll choose a Lumix S1RII camera, given my use and my beautiful Leica M lenses.

I usually use two setups for planetary observation:
- either: 180apo Leica R 2.8 + 1st Leica R apo extender + 2nd Leica R apo extender + sometimes R/M adapter + focuser glued to a bored M cap + 7mm wide-field telescope eyepiece; magnification = (180x2x2)/7 = 102 with an inverted image!!!
- or: 180apo Leica R 2.8 + 1st Leica R apo extender + 2nd Leica R apo extender + TO-R 12.5mm accessory; magnification = (180x2x2)/12.5 = 58 with an upright image!!!
I was thinking of doing something similar with the Sigma 500, but I'm hampered by the focus, which requires mounting it on a camera body.
Is there a trick (for astrophotographers) for controlling this focus without a camera body?
Click to expand...
For what do you want to use the Sigma 500 f5.6 at the end?
I guess the combination of this lens with the S1RII will be really good. To me it sounds like you are looking for a very good setup in a more nice area
1. Using the stuff for astro
2. Doing more wildlife

My thoughts are, that in both cases the S1II might be the better camera because:
1. For astro the megapixel count shall not be so relevant, because you will end up with stacking. And more MP means more noise too. And as soon as you use stacking, you shall have enough resolution.
2. For wildlife you will need to rely on FPS and here the S1II is better in regards to IQ because of less rolling shutter. In addition less MP means less micro wobblers and on high focus lens this means you save some exposure time

I don’t say that the S1RII does not fit. It is a very very good camera, I using it very ofter and love it. But if you are looking for the best for your setup, maybe try the S1II too.
May I ask why you do nit use a dedicated astro photography camera for your lens setup? You put so much effort and I guess money into is, then a dedicated astro photography + fitting software and workflow should mot add too much cost anymore.

I am not aware of any device which allows to use the full electronic L-Mount lenses to be focused manually without a camera. But it sounds like a fun maker project to build something like this ;-)
 
NFec said:
For what do you want to use the Sigma 500 f5.6 at the end?
I guess the combination of this lens with the S1RII will be really good. To me it sounds like you are looking for a very good setup in a more nice area
1. Using the stuff for astro
2. Doing more wildlife

My thoughts are, that in both cases the S1II might be the better camera because:
1. For astro the megapixel count shall not be so relevant, because you will end up with stacking. And more MP means more noise too. And as soon as you use stacking, you shall have enough resolution.
2. For wildlife you will need to rely on FPS and here the S1II is better in regards to IQ because of less rolling shutter. In addition less MP means less micro wobblers and on high focus lens this means you save some exposure time

I don’t say that the S1RII does not fit. It is a very very good camera, I using it very ofter and love it. But if you are looking for the best for your setup, maybe try the S1II too.
May I ask why you do nit use a dedicated astro photography camera for your lens setup? You put so much effort and I guess money into is, then a dedicated astro photography + fitting software and workflow should mot add too much cost anymore.

I am not aware of any device which allows to use the full electronic L-Mount lenses to be focused manually without a camera. But it sounds like a fun maker project to build something like this ;-)
Click to expand...
Thank you for these very interesting comments.
I'm interested in the 500 for its rendering, its reduced weight, and its compactness.
I've compared the S1II and S1RII, and given my applications (mostly landscapes, street photography, and a little wildlife, and even less astronomy, mostly in photography and less in video) and my familiarity with high resolutions (60 Leica and Hasselblad and 100 MP Hasselblad), I naturally gravitate toward the S1RII.
For manual focusing with this electric lens, I like working on the electronics, but how do I control its focus motors without a camera body? ;) ouhhhhhhh ?
 
Hello,
Your advice is making sense, and I've now returned to choosing the S1II (which I find more complementary to the "high-resolution" Hasselblad M11 and X) for its speed and low-light qualities in photography and video.
Regarding the multiplier, the 1.4x (TC1411) seemed more sensible with the 44MP, but with the 24MP and its lesser cropping capabilities, I think the 2x (TC2011) would be more rewarding...
Thanks again for your feedback.
 
I'll just add this POV:

- I find the high resolution of the S1RII sensor to be of great value for birding & wildlife, due to cropping. Sure, you can get the 2x TC, but now you are then shooting at F11 instead of F8, and the added noise will eliminate any advantages of the smaller sensor from a noise perspective. Also, F11 will also take a toll on detail due to diffraction.

- I do use the S1RII for astro and find that it works quite well. I do track, however, and have very fast glass. I also, again, like the added resolution for astro as it lets me crop more freely in post. So I can use my fast 28mm to easily crop to 35mm - or even 50mm - if I find that I like that FOV better for a given composition once I get home, without having to buy a fast 35. Of course, you can crop a 24 MP image as well, but with reduced freedom.

Now, would the S1II be better from a noise standpoint for astro? Possibly - but see next point.

- The thing to remember about the S1II sensor is that it's DR advantage is primarily at base ISO. At ISO 400 & above, the two sensors give the same PDR on Bill's charts. And, in fact, the S1RII sensor actually has better "shadow PDR Improvement" at ISOs between 400 and 6400. Which is where most of your work for birding/wildlife and astro will occur.

However, the faster processor of the S1II should pay dividends in terms of faster AF, which means it should have a greater keeper rate when you are shooting in continuous mode, but I don't know how significant that will be.
 
In summary, I think that historically, the 24 MP sensor was considered the "default" buy, and the 40+ MP sensors were considered a specialist kit. I feel that this is now inverted, and the main reason to buy a 24 MP sensor today is to save money. Note that I am talking primarily from a stills perspective. Now, saving money is never a bad thing, of course, but I see little downside to the current batch of high res sensor bodies. Of course, since Panasonic choose not to go partial or fully stacked on the R, we L-mount users do have to consider sensor readout speed and the effect it may have on our work when choosing between the sensors. For me, I did fret about that a bit, but in retrospect I don't think it's very important. For me. Of course if I ever get into close-quarters action photography or videography I might change my mind there.
 
S1II or S1RII... Where is it possible to see the Bill's charts of these models ? Your info is very interesting, thank you...
 
I really enjoyed using the SL2S's nighttime performance with M lenses, and I think I'll find it even better with the S1II, this time in both photo and video, perhaps with the new 24-60 F2.8...
We'll have the Leica M and the Hasselblad X for high resolution, and the Lumix for photo and video for speed and low light, also with the Sigma 500mm 5.6, with or without a 2x lens.
I'll be leaning towards the 24MP, at least this morning ;)
 
Quentinquirelino said:
I still think a S1HII with fully stacked 45 Mpix Sensor could be thing. Especially when Panasonic could implement DR boost like they did for the S1II.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I tend to agree. That would be a top-tier body, assuming they fix the S1II/S1RII cache, which is too small and takes too long to clear. Oh and a bigger battery would be great, but I doubt that will happen.
 
GeorgeHudetz said:
Yeah, I tend to agree. That would be a top-tier body, assuming they fix the S1II/S1RII cache, which is too small and takes too long to clear. Oh and a bigger battery would be great, but I doubt that will happen.
Click to expand...
I think the lower resolution of the S1II has an advantage. Tbe buffer has a higher picture count and also gets cleared a little faster because of the smaller files.
But yes, Panasonic should work on the buffer size and clearance.
 
Quentinquirelino said:
I think the lower resolution of the S1II has an advantage. Tbe buffer has a higher picture count and also gets cleared a little faster because of the smaller files.
But yes, Panasonic should work on the buffer size and clearance.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Has somebody timed the S1II?

I know on my S1RII, 40-fps, JPEG-only, it takes 15 seconds to clear the buffer. This, measured from the moment I initially hold the shutter button down to the moment that the red light stops flashing (I lift my finger off the shutter button once it stops capturing frames).

Raw only = 18 seconds, so only 20% longer than JPEG-only.
Raw+ JPEG = 25 seconds; 38% longer than raw-only.

So, on the S1RII anyway, to buffer-clear time seems more sensitive to the number of files rather than the file size (although ultimately I'm sure both play a role). Kind of counter intuitive, but that's what I see.
 
Last edited:
GeorgeHudetz said:
Interesting. Has somebody timed the S1II?

I know on my S1RII, 40-fps, JPEG-only, it takes 15 seconds to clear the buffer. This, measured from the moment I initially hold the shutter button down to the moment that the red light stops flashing (I lift my finger off the shutter button once it stops capturing frames).

Raw only = 18 seconds, so only 20% longer than JPEG-only.
Raw+ JPEG = 25 seconds; 38% longer than raw-only.

So, on the S1RII anyway, to buffer-clear time seems more sensitive to the number of files rather than the file size (although ultimately I'm sure both play a role). Kind of counter intuitive, but that's what I see.
Click to expand...
I don't have the camera myself, but I have read something about 13 sek. for fully clearing RAW to a CF 4.0 card. About double amount of time to a SD. Also if you only use up to 10 fps, the buffer the camera doesn't slow down noticeable because of almost instant clearing. So it's mainly an issue with 60/70 fps. But even there you could use the camera with full speed when the buffer is only partly filled until it's full again.
 
Thank you for the DR courbe.

Regarding "diffraction with tele-converters"
I'm trying to recall some memories... ... ... old memories ;)... ... ... of optical concepts :

Diffraction is indeed something we often have to be wary of. A diaphragm hole diameter that's too small will naturally cause a bending of the light, which will alter sharpness; we agree on that.

But here, it seems to me that using a teleconverter only optically crops the image of the lens placed in front of it, without changing the diameter of the diaphragm hole.

So, of course, the calculation, which is only a calculation, will indicate a narrower relative aperture (and not an actual aperture), but it's only the calculation of the relative aperture "Focal length (including the teleconverter coefficient)/diameter of the diaphragm hole."

It seems to me that using a teleconverter doesn't aggravate the diffraction phenomenon, except to see more the diffraction, if seeable, at F5,6 if the 500mm is at F5,6.

I did some tests with Nij-kon lenses a while ago... or so... anyway! I noticed that the x2 tel-converter of the time only increased resolution with high-quality lenses (105 macro at the time...) and degraded resolution with others, especially with certain zoom lenses. I hope to gain resolution with the x2 Sigma behind the 500mm 5.6, which I've only read very good things about...

But be careful: these are only the conclusions of very vague and old memories of physics/optics ;) ;) ;)

Ah, can't wait for the camera...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top