Nikon launch the Z8

[pdk42]

Nikon Z8 initial review

The Nikon Z8 is a $4000 Stacked-CMOS full-frame mirrorless camera that offers most of the capabilities of the range-topping Z9 but in a smaller, less expensive body.

www.dpreview.com

And it’s almost as big as the S1!

 

[xaviergut]

And it’s almost as big as the S1!

The question is: when will the L-Mount Alliance release a camera like the Nikon Z9/Z8 or Sony A1? Or even the OM1 for the M4/3 world.

Because despite the PDAF of the S5II/S5IIx, the Lumix/Leica/Sigma Alliance has not yet such a flagship camera... IMHO... The S1R does not have equivalent focus and low-light performance.

 

[pdk42]

I agree. The S1 range in general is now looking pretty dated. The S5ii is great, but it’s not enough. Where is the S1ii?

 

[Pete_W]

Looks like a very nice camera.

However I must admit that I continue to be confused that DPReview is still posting articles! And in the comments, in response to a user asking about the sample gallery, Richard said "Yeah, this was all I could find to shoot in the hours I had the camera. We hope to find something a little more challenging as soon as we have a production spec camera".

Sounds like there is no end date at all for DPR.

 

[Richard Wong]

I agree. The S1 range in general is now looking pretty dated. The S5ii is great, but it’s not enough. Where is the S1ii?

I'm sure some sort of second-generation S1 series camera will come eventually. But just don't believe most of the rumours you read on the internet, they just create really wrong expectations.

However I must admit that I continue to be confused that DPReview is still posting articles! And in the comments, in response to a user asking about the sample gallery, Richard said "Yeah, this was all I could find to shoot in the hours I had the camera. We hope to find something a little more challenging as soon as we have a production spec camera".

Yeah i'm really confused too. They are still MOSTLY updating as usual. I said mostly because there are news that they missed, like the S5IIx release.

 

[Quentinquirelino]

I'm very curious about the future S1II, also S1HII and probably S1RII. Nikon set the bar for what you can get for $4000 with the Z8 and Panasonic it self for what you can get for $2000 with the S5II. The S1(H/R)II has to deliver more than the S5II, when it will justify a higher price. But with a higher price, it also get's compared to the Z8.

The L-Mount as a system is to small to relay on it's user base for sales, like Sony and Canon could.

 

[xaviergut]

Nikon set the bar for what you can get for $4000 with the Z8 and Panasonic it self for what you can get for $2000 with the S5II.

Exactly. The thing is that the price of a new S1R is $3,700, if i am not wrong, and I'm afraid it's still a long way from the Z8 in terms of autofocus and low light performance.

 

[Quentinquirelino]

Exactly. The thing is that the price of a new S1R is $3,700, if i am not wrong, and I'm afraid it's still a long way from the Z8 in terms of autofocus and low light performance.

Is the low light performance of the S1R worse? If I take the data of photonstophotons and compare the S1R to the Z9 (same sensor as Z8), they seem on the same level. Same goes for the data of DXOMARK. However, the Z8 looks definitely like a more versatile camera in almost every aspect.

 

[xaviergut]

Is the low light performance of the S1R worse?

Hi quentinquirelino, I think I did not explain myself well. I was referring to the Z9's ability to focus in low light situations. The Z9 has a feature called "Starlight View Focus", which enables low-light autofocus down to -9 EV with an f/1.2 lens (which is improved as of Firmware Version 3.0; it used to be -8.5 EV).

 

[Quentinquirelino]

Hi quentinquirelino, I think I did not explain myself well. I was referring to the Z9's ability to focus in low light situations. The Z9 has a feature called "Starlight View Focus", which enables low-light autofocus down to -9 EV with an f/1.2 lens (which is improved as of Firmware Version 3.0; it used to be -8.5 EV).

Ahhh, you have been referring to AF and not HighISO. I think the DFD in the S1R is rated down to about -6EV with f1.4 lens. So not quite as good. But it should still have star light AF. However the Z9 is better. More important are the better capacities with faster subjects, I think. But a point is a point.

 

[wh1tby]

I must admit to not caring much if the L Alliance releases an A1/Z8/Z9 competitor as they have a superb market niche at the moment. I have a foot in the Sony camp (I also shoot a Sony A7RIVa) as well a 'new' foot in the L Alliance camp. For me the interesting thing is that this seems like a lower cost competitor to the Sony A1 and it will interesting to see their response. Canon are probably working on an upgrade to the R5, but the current model is not fast enough for the sports and wildlife/professional crowd.

I have tried Nikon mirrorless (Z6, Z7II) and although they are excellent cameras I could not get on with them and found they got in the way of my photography (my problem, not Nikon since many many people use and love Nikons). I started serious photography with Pentax (many many moons ago) and then moved to Canon and used Canon exclusively in the digital (APS C) world until I found Fuji which I loved for quite a few years until I wanted to move into full frame. Then I tried Canon, Nikon, Sony (stuck with Sony) and have just bought the S5II which seemed to be a great high quality hybrid camera (the Sony A7RIVa is not a good video camera).

Anyway, after dribbling on a little while, what I mean to say is (and I repeat myself here, I know), the S5II has a great niche which is good for me. If I want resolution I have my Sony A7RIVa (61 MP), but if I want a fast sports camera (like my old Canon 7D II) then I need to look at the A1, but this Z8 looks very interesting, but my problems with Nikon stops me ordering one (and the lack of glass which I sold when I sold my Z7ii). Bottom line is I am waiting for Sony's response and what Canon will do with the R5. Panasonic has its own path (and always has).

 

[GeorgeHudetz]

Let's hope there is an S2R on the way to compete with the Z8. It would be fabulous. But first they have to make the autofocus work. It's all going to come down to the firmware updates for the S5II. If they can prove that body can keep up (from a stills standpoint) with the competition, then a $4k S2R will make sense and probably arrive.

 

[pdk42]

If Panasonic, Leica, and Sigma want L mount to compete with the other mainstream FF systems (Nikon Z, Canon R, and Sony E), then they need competitive bodies in multiple sectors. The S5ii is a fantastic mid-price body, but the S1 is looking dated compared to the Z8, R5, and A7r4. I’m sure a new S1 with PDAF is on the horizon and if it’s on a level with the Z8 I for one will order it. I really hope it keeps the two axis folding screen of the existing S1 (and I see the Z8 has this design too).

 

[CharlesH]

I really hope it keeps the two axis folding screen of the existing S1

I very much like the screen on the GH6 which can either tilt or swing out. I was surprised this wasn't on the S5II. The S1H has a screen like this, but it is pretty clunky compared to the better design of the GH6. The only issue with the GH6 is it only tilts up, not down. But you can use the swing out function if you want to hold the camera over your head. I really expect a higher end version of the S1 or S1R will have this feature.

 

[AlanC]

If Panasonic, Leica, and Sigma want L mount to compete with the other mainstream FF systems (Nikon Z, Canon R, and Sony E), then they need competitive bodies in multiple sectors.

I wonder what percentage of the market L-Mount actually has?

IIRC the last surveys put the market shares for Panasonic at 4.4% and Leica at around 1%, but both have other ranges that appear more popular than L-Mount: M43 for Panasonic and the M and Q series for Leica. I couldn't find any detailed information for Sigma. They'd have to be truly, remarkably, successful at this point to become mainstream, or even catch up with Fujifilm at around 5.6%.

As to the Z8, I look forward to the day when all cameras have either stacked sensors or global electronic shutters: no more shutter shock. But I have no desire for another brick like my previous Nikon DSLRs.

 

[pdk42]

It's amazing how fortunes can change though. It seems only a few years ago that people were writing Nikon off. Their previous forays into mirrorless were not a success (Nikon 1 and the announced-but-never-released DL) and by 2018, with Sony seemingly unstoppable in mirrorless FF, Nikon seemed in deep trouble. And then they launched the Z system. The Z6 and Z7 were generally well received but they were clearly first attempts at FF mirrorless and had some weaknesses. But Nikon kept at it with the Z6ii and Z7ii, then the Z5, then the Z9, and now the Z8. And the lens range has grown and grown with some spectacularly good optics. Today they are at least as good as, and arguably ahead, of Sony and Canon.

It's hard not to draw a comparison at this point with Panasonic, as painful as it seems to criticise the system we all choose to use. But it has to be said that the energy from the S1/S1R launch is now a distant memory and whilst the S5 and S5ii are great cameras, the S range overall looks very thin when compared with what's available from all the other FF competitors. Lens wise L-mount isn't in a bad position, but there are still some obvious holes when compared to the others.

So, I think that Panasonic need to pull all the stops out with the S1ii if they want to show the market that they are serious and in it for the long run. I think they will though. The S5ii is a fantastic product and shows what Panasonic can do. So, I'm really crossing my fingers for a fantastic S1ii launch later this year.

 

[wh1tby]

It is interesting to see that the major reaction to the introduction of the Z8 is to wonder whether Panasonic will introduce a S1ii. I am wondering whether this market is so small overall that it is better for the manufacturers to specialize in a specific segment. Having Sony/Canon/Nikon/Fuji/Panasonic (Pentax seem to have stopped competing at this point) all producing a full range of cameras addressing identical market segments seems a little less likely given the reduced size of the overall market. Panasonic dominated the M4/5 segment of video/still cameras for a long time and their push into full frame seemed interesting if not a little odd until you saw what they produced. Their S5 seemed in line with a competitive full frame camera with very good (and high end) video capabilities. Pushing into the professional full frame photography market seems to be unlikely to me even though they started with the S1 series which were no more than adequate when compared to the competition (speed, autofocus, size were all issues cited for their lack of marker penetration).

My feeling is that Panasonic would be better carving out a market not addressed by Canon/Sony and Nikon. Fuji have gone their own way into very high resolution medium format cameras with which none of the other players compete and have a unique range of APS C cameras which are a joy to use due to their legacy appeal. I am also interested into why we must commit to a specific manufacturer. Is it the glass investment or is it the philosophy built into how the camera handles. Is it not reasonable to have one camera body and associated lenses associated with, say, landscapes and other high resolution needs, another for street photography, another for portraits etc. I know professionals do this, but what about the prosumer? I have a Fuji x100V for street photography (compact, excellent quality), a Sony A7RIVa for high resolution work (including wild life; a bit slow though, landscapes, portraits, specific subjects such as trains, cars, ships etc.) and now my S5ii for general photography (family, portraits and video etc.). I have ended up here as a result of much experimentation and find each body/lens combination has its own merits and have struggled to find a one size fits all solution. Just a thought and maybe worth the time to ponder. (The Z8 might have replaced the Sony A7RIVa and Panasonic S5ii for me except I do not get on with Nikons and it is still too large).

BTW I love this discussion and thank this forum for providing a suitable location for this debate.

 

[RBecker]

In my opinion Panasonic will next release a MFT with new AF to keep the smaller system alive. After that they will come back to the S series.
Based on the actual general sales numbers I‘m not expecting a big variety of cameras like now (S1, R, H, Box). I think they will try combine (the box maybe stay a special bondy) into one product. Technically it could be possible to gather the development and production costs. But what sensor should be used? The Nikon seems to be a Nikon exclusive, the Sony 60 is to slow, only the Sonsor from the A1 could be used universal for all. What about the long announced organic? How will the next Leica look like?

A big number of questions in hard times for manufacturers.

 

[AlanC]

I am also interested into why we must commit to a specific manufacturer. Is it the glass investment or is it the philosophy built into how the camera handles.

In my case it's the lenses. While I appreciate what you say about using different cameras for different purposes, and do that myself with my Panasonic S5 and recently acquired Sigma fp L, I'd rather not have multiple systems. It's actually part of the appeal of L-Mount for me: Panasonic, Sigma and Leica make some radically different L-Mount cameras, but I can use the same lenses on any of them.

One potential plus for L-Mount is that Panasonic and Sigma are both working on their own sensors. We know Sigma's full frame Foveon is still some way off, but what about the Panasonic's organic sensor? The promotional material makes it sound remarkable, with a global shutter, high dynamic range and excellent colour separation. A hypothetical S1ii based on such a sensor could attract a lot of interest...

 

[pdk42]

It’s an interesting debate. Whilst I can see that certain specialised genres might require gear best suited to it (e.g. OM m43 for wildlife), I think any camera system worth its salt needs to be broad enough to work over a range of use cases. In the case of FF cameras, unless you’re going to abandon the stills market entirely, a hi res body is almost mandatory given the likely use in landscape or studio photography. L mount won‘t be a system to be taken seriously If it just becomes a video only tool.