Quentinquirelino
Well-Known Member
Hopefully there will be steps better 10fps and 70fps. With 40fps you already end up with a load of images. But 70 fps...
L-MOUNT Forum
Register a free account now!
If you are registered, you get access to the members only section, can participate in the buy & sell second hand forum and last but not least you can reserve your preferred username before someone else takes it.
Rumors New Lumix camera(s) on May 13th?
- Thread starter dirk
- Start date
Pete_W
LMF-Patron
Yes, you're absolutely right. And for me ergonomics would be the main driver to upgrade as I expect the IQ won't be much different from the S5II.
Pete_W
LMF-Patron
Brasilian site ist offline now.
I thought it was probably an "Oops!" moment.
Someone will have some explaining to do after that!I printed a PDF of the page so I could review the specs again before we get to the announcement day.
Nevyn72
LMF-Patron Gold
I did the sameI thought it was probably an "Oops!" moment.
I printed a PDF of the page so I could review the specs again before we get to the announcement day.
You can see every available page of this morning translated by Google as screenshots in this thread starting at page 3. That is all what was available as far as I know.
pdk42
Moderator
Well, you thought your post to be mean and miserable, but I think your analysis crystallises well the challenge Panasonic has. I don’t think 24Mp is in itself a problem - especially for a high frame rate, high readout speed camera. But if it’s going to measure up as an action stills camera its AF will have to be a lot better than what’s in the S5ii and S1Rii. I’ve no idea what “urban sports” are, but if it means it can’t do wildlife or sports like football or rugby etc then it’s a big problem for them!
I hope they really have stepped up their AF for stills, but I suspect they haven’t. These new AF features just sound like additional AI training for subject recognition. That’s good, but it won’t fix limitations in motion prediction or in very rapid focus acquisition when shooting at high frame rates. Video AF is far less critical with this. If a few frames at 24p are a bit OOF no-one will notice, but on stills it could be the difference between a Nat Geo award-winning shot of a kingfisher catching an unusual fish or a “close but no cigar” shot where the feather detail is just not there.
Regarding AF for sports photography. I think we need to differentiate here.
There are many different kind of sports and as far as I can judge it with my experience with different brands, the newest Lumix cameras are good enough for 98% of all sports.
But there are special sports like soccer, field hockey, ice hockey and probably also baseball, football and basketball (team sports with crowds of people close to each other), which require special capabilities if and only if you do want to have no work at all, but still expect rasersharp faces of the focus players in the best position.
There have been photographers with manual focus cameras who were able to get the shot. But this requires experience with this sport and planning/thinking ahead.
Technically, such an experienced photographer will be able to make award-winning photos with a Lumix 5ii. The AF is fast enough und good enough for this. With 20 or 40 fps, you will have at least one perfect shot.
Obviously people with no or less experience in photographing that sport (like me) will have a harder time, no matter how fast our AF is or how many fps I have.
AFAIK there is no brand which offers a "dummy AF" which will make each shot perfectly in focus with these team sports. Every tracking gets sooner or later confused, if another body blocks temporarly the main subject. Or face recognition does not work because of helmets, rain etc. In sport this is very different than these youtube reviewers who hold something in front of thr camera for 2 seconds etc.
I did a lot of research over the last couple of days to find tips and trick from professional sport photographers of team sports. No matter which brand they used, none is 100% reliable.
If you earn your money with it and you have to deliver at least 10-20 keepers, you start to develop an individual technique for your specific team sport. You do not press the shutter and hope for the best. Most team sport professionals seem not to use eye or face detection, because the hit rate is not high enough. No matter which brand.
They neither do "spray & pray". They do not use 40fps. They do not have the time to screen all these images afterwards or with a partner live during the game.
I just want to say with this, that we as amateurs have sometimes the tendency to believe that technology is already good enough and we push the button only. But if the pros are not able to do it, we won't neither. Just buying another camera with a 10% better AF in areas outside of team sport does not help at all.
Professional sports photographers do not "hunt" for an image, they "catch" it. They do not follow the player
over the field all the time (hunter), they know in advance when and where a good situation can happen and they wait at the right standpoint for this shot and then press the trigger (catch). Eye or face detection plays according to these photographers a minor role or no role at all.
I will experiment in the coming weeks more with the AF settings. But the AF incl. face detection of the S5ii and S1Rii is good enough for runners, bicycles etc pp. Only team sport - like with other brands - the AF tracking eye/faces often or sometimes fails, depending on the situation, standpoint, clothes, heads turned down, helmets, other players crossing etc. pp.
There are many different kind of sports and as far as I can judge it with my experience with different brands, the newest Lumix cameras are good enough for 98% of all sports.
But there are special sports like soccer, field hockey, ice hockey and probably also baseball, football and basketball (team sports with crowds of people close to each other), which require special capabilities if and only if you do want to have no work at all, but still expect rasersharp faces of the focus players in the best position.
There have been photographers with manual focus cameras who were able to get the shot. But this requires experience with this sport and planning/thinking ahead.
Technically, such an experienced photographer will be able to make award-winning photos with a Lumix 5ii. The AF is fast enough und good enough for this. With 20 or 40 fps, you will have at least one perfect shot.
Obviously people with no or less experience in photographing that sport (like me) will have a harder time, no matter how fast our AF is or how many fps I have.
AFAIK there is no brand which offers a "dummy AF" which will make each shot perfectly in focus with these team sports. Every tracking gets sooner or later confused, if another body blocks temporarly the main subject. Or face recognition does not work because of helmets, rain etc. In sport this is very different than these youtube reviewers who hold something in front of thr camera for 2 seconds etc.
I did a lot of research over the last couple of days to find tips and trick from professional sport photographers of team sports. No matter which brand they used, none is 100% reliable.
If you earn your money with it and you have to deliver at least 10-20 keepers, you start to develop an individual technique for your specific team sport. You do not press the shutter and hope for the best. Most team sport professionals seem not to use eye or face detection, because the hit rate is not high enough. No matter which brand.
They neither do "spray & pray". They do not use 40fps. They do not have the time to screen all these images afterwards or with a partner live during the game.
I just want to say with this, that we as amateurs have sometimes the tendency to believe that technology is already good enough and we push the button only. But if the pros are not able to do it, we won't neither. Just buying another camera with a 10% better AF in areas outside of team sport does not help at all.
Professional sports photographers do not "hunt" for an image, they "catch" it. They do not follow the player
over the field all the time (hunter), they know in advance when and where a good situation can happen and they wait at the right standpoint for this shot and then press the trigger (catch). Eye or face detection plays according to these photographers a minor role or no role at all.
I will experiment in the coming weeks more with the AF settings. But the AF incl. face detection of the S5ii and S1Rii is good enough for runners, bicycles etc pp. Only team sport - like with other brands - the AF tracking eye/faces often or sometimes fails, depending on the situation, standpoint, clothes, heads turned down, helmets, other players crossing etc. pp.
pdk42
Moderator
I confess I know almost nothing about sports photography. But I have tried bird shooting a little in the past - with Olympus gear. I know from that experience that good AF is absolutely essential to avoid almost total frustration! I have also spent a lot of time with other Olympus bird photographers over the years and I know from their tortuous journey just how hard it's been for Olympus/OM to get even near to the level of Sony/Canon/Nikon. I think even now that the OM1.2, whilst close to these other brands, is still not quite as good.
So we now come to Panasonic. I honestly don't know whether the S5ii or the S1Rii are up with the best for bird/wildlife/sports, or whether the new S1ii will move the needle further forward. But I do know that Panasonic's reputation (mostly earned in the dark days of DFD) is pretty poor for AF. If the S1ii/S1iie are to succeed as action cameras for stills, the market needs to have this perception fixed. I think Panasonic need to find some "ambassadors" who can demonstrate the system's capability for this sort of photography. And in fact, I think it's a decent enough market - it's mostly populated by retirees with the cash to buy the kit they need!
It's also worth mentioning of course that the lenses matter almost as much as the camera - fast and accurate AF mechanisms in the lens are essential. Aside from the Sigma long lenses, should Panasonic add something of their own?
So we now come to Panasonic. I honestly don't know whether the S5ii or the S1Rii are up with the best for bird/wildlife/sports, or whether the new S1ii will move the needle further forward. But I do know that Panasonic's reputation (mostly earned in the dark days of DFD) is pretty poor for AF. If the S1ii/S1iie are to succeed as action cameras for stills, the market needs to have this perception fixed. I think Panasonic need to find some "ambassadors" who can demonstrate the system's capability for this sort of photography. And in fact, I think it's a decent enough market - it's mostly populated by retirees with the cash to buy the kit they need!
It's also worth mentioning of course that the lenses matter almost as much as the camera - fast and accurate AF mechanisms in the lens are essential. Aside from the Sigma long lenses, should Panasonic add something of their own?
GeorgeHudetz
Well-Known Member
It's premature to reach any conclusions of the new platform (S1RII and S1II) from an AF perspective. Pretty much all brands went through a "tortuous journey" before they reached their current levels. I do agree, however, that Panasonic has a steep hill to climb from a reputation standpoint. Hopefully they can advance it with the new processor & algorithms, but we really don't know yet. We do know, however, that there are two or three bodies based on the new platform, which gives them good economies of scale and plenty of incentive.
Exactly. When the Z8 first came out its AF performance was not up to the competition, particularly with regards to shooting birds in flight (which is far more challenging than most types of wildlife photography). Improvements to the Z8's autofocus were introduced via firmware updates, and now it is considered competitive. I am hopeful that Panasonic will improve the AF performance over time. In the meantime, I am not finding that the AF of the S1Rii is deficient for my purposes. I just came back from a wildlife shoot and did not have any issues with AF, but then again I was shooting large mammals such as elk, pronghorn, bears, and wolves. None of them came charging directly at me (while zig-zagging back and forth!) so the AF deficiencies documented in those tests proved not to be a problem.
Bird in flight is a tough one. Never tried it.
I think that is a very important point. I can only compare Lumix telezooms with Olympus telezooms on Lumix and Olympus bodies for sports photography. The body did not matter at all. It was the lens.
The Olympus lenses were always faster, snappier than the Lumix lenses. Oly 40-250/2.8 vs. Leica 50-200/4.0, 35-100/2.8 Mkiii, all on G9 (only DFD!) and EM1.3.
I see similar differences now with my S5ii snd the Sigma 100-400 DG DN and Lumix 70-300. Both sre great lenses and both have a fast AF. But not as fast as the old Oly 40-150/2.8 Pro for MFT.
The Sigma 100-400 is "only" a contemporary lens. Not a sport lens. The AF is accordingly as expected and nothing to complain about.
The Oly 40-150/2.8 Pro was designed for sports and wildlife. That shows. There are longer lenses from Oly and Panasonic in MFT, but their AF is slower than the 40-150/2.8.
Atm I do not see any sport telezoom in the L-Mount line up except the new Sigma 300-600mm.
I think that is a very important point. I can only compare Lumix telezooms with Olympus telezooms on Lumix and Olympus bodies for sports photography. The body did not matter at all. It was the lens.
The Olympus lenses were always faster, snappier than the Lumix lenses. Oly 40-250/2.8 vs. Leica 50-200/4.0, 35-100/2.8 Mkiii, all on G9 (only DFD!) and EM1.3.
I see similar differences now with my S5ii snd the Sigma 100-400 DG DN and Lumix 70-300. Both sre great lenses and both have a fast AF. But not as fast as the old Oly 40-150/2.8 Pro for MFT.
The Sigma 100-400 is "only" a contemporary lens. Not a sport lens. The AF is accordingly as expected and nothing to complain about.
The Oly 40-150/2.8 Pro was designed for sports and wildlife. That shows. There are longer lenses from Oly and Panasonic in MFT, but their AF is slower than the 40-150/2.8.
Atm I do not see any sport telezoom in the L-Mount line up except the new Sigma 300-600mm.
RuleOfThirds
Well-Known Member
You could just rent the 300-600 for a shoot (maybe with Sherpa). Make some unbelievable nice shots, and be done for the soccer/hockey season and enjoy just the others matches and take some casual pictures of those with the equipment you have. I understand that if the goal is to make a yearbook of all the matches that would not be feasible with renting.
xaviergut
LMF-Patron
But the new S1ii with the semistacked sensor like the Z6iii should be fast, right?
Well, I know bird photographers from Nikon who say that the AF is almost on par but not 100% as good as the Z8 /Z9...
Let us see tomorrow the reviews. By the way, I remember when the S5ii was launched a video of Tony Northup trying to do bird photography with the S5ii and saying that it was not as good as other brands hahahaha very intelligent hahahaha
Well, I know bird photographers from Nikon who say that the AF is almost on par but not 100% as good as the Z8 /Z9...
Let us see tomorrow the reviews. By the way, I remember when the S5ii was launched a video of Tony Northup trying to do bird photography with the S5ii and saying that it was not as good as other brands hahahaha very intelligent hahahaha
Yeah this is overseen.
For me the prime 1.8 line was a key factor to get L mount.
Now they will have the most affordable F2.8 kit lens combination.
For many people the option of S1iiE with F2.8 can be the "one does it all, cheaply". Add the Samyang 85 F1.4 and you get a very nice combination without breaking the bank.
The moral of the whole story, is buy what's available, right now. Not what your wishes or hopes for the future might be, but what you can pick off the shelf, right now, that works for you.
If you want a bazillion FPS with AF that works for every shot, buy a Sony.
If you want a bazillion FPS with AF that works for every shot, buy a Sony.
Quentinquirelino
Well-Known Member
Well, sensor read out speed is a key factor for tracking fast subjects and a point where Panasonic is lagging behind. The semi stacked sensor of the Z6III has around 14ms for 14bit and about 11ms for 12 bit. That would help, for sure.
Jonathan-Mac
Well-Known Member
Economies of scale in camera gear don't seem to apply, from my experience. From my use, the best value in the DSLR era came from Pentax and now in mirrorless it's Lumix, both of which have only a very small market share, and one of the main turn-offs for CaNikOny gear is that they are over-priced, and together they must have about 90% of the market.
Every solution has pro and cons. If only the 24MP versions have stacked sensors, you loose the ability to crop like witz a 44MP or 60MP sensor.
That is a trade off between faster AF tracking and better photos because you can crop in more, but need nore experience to use the AF system of your camera at its full potential.
I remember that Thom Hogan always complained in his articles, that his workshop people complained about the AF of their Nikon cameras (no matter which model) for wildlife and birding, but in 99% of the cases, it was the lack of knowledge how to set up and use the AF system for the required task properly.
I am in that camp too. Often too lazy to read the manual and to invest a couple of weeks to really learn and master all AF options available with that body. This is (I think) the reason, why I did not feel a big differences in the AF between the S5 and S5ii.
I have at least the goal, to learn this time the S1Rii better than I did learn the S5ii. Especially the AF system. But it is hard to stick to this selfdisciplin. We will see whether I will succeed or fail again and lazyness wins again...
The higher margins of Sony, Nikon and Canon allows them to spend more money in R&D for i.e. better AF plus they have a better buffer to lower the prices and still have enough profit.
But of course they will not make the prices lower, if they do not have to.
Jonathan-Mac
Well-Known Member
24MP is plenty for me and if I were looking to replace my S5 then I would avoid cameras with a higher resolution - I don't want those extra big files taking up space.