Latest "that system has it so why don't we?" thread

[Markuswelder]

I have seen discussions online of photographers saying that the Sigma Art 40mm f/1.4 DG HSM / A es even better than the Lumix 50mm f/1.4 S PRO...

He he he. They're both monsters. The Siggy 40mm is 1.2kg Mind you the 50mm S Pro is 955gms, so not that far behind.

 

[Jonathan-Mac]

I agree that more S-Pro primes should exist and would sell because there's a certain type of photographer who will only really accept having the same brand name on both camera and lens (although I think most of those people are Canon shooters). Having just one, even if Sigma offer alternatives, seems far too sparse. I wouldn't buy any such lenses because I'm sure that Sigma would offer just as good quality in 2/3s of the price and I'm a big Sigma fan.

 

[Travis Butler]

I do think, Panasonic should bring a S pro lens line with f1.2 or f1.4 primes, f2.8 zooms, and a 100-400/500 that actually can be in the > 2000 $ or even around 3000 $ price range. And that they should make it es perfect as they can make it.

I would have no objection to that… after they make a more mid-tier premium line.

My point is that right now, there is nothing between the baseline and the pro lenses. And maybe I am out of touch with what the mainstream photography market is… but I can’t see anyone but the very very highest-end hobbyist spending more than $1500 on a lens, except in very special circumstances.

I think that price ranges are okay for first party option and also there are enough who would buy those lenses. I don't think this prices are out of reach for many customers.

I absolutely do. Panasonic might sell a few hundred copies to the kind of people who can afford to drop that kind of money on a hobby - but most sales are going to be pros. They are not mass-market lenses. They are not going to grow Panasonic’s market share.

That’s the point of this exercise for me. Put out a line of high-quality lenses that an ordinary hobbyist can buy out of an ordinary hobby budget. If that means they can’t put in a dozen expensive, heavy specialty elements to achieve perfection, so be it. Perfection isn’t needed; it just has to be an obvious improvement on the baseline lenses that will get ordinary hobbyists to stretch a little. That, I argue, is what will sell systems in numbers that will actually grow market share.

But if they are, we still have Sigma as very good alternatives. And also should Panasonic differentiated the S pro Line from Sigma in price. Panasonic lenses not only can, they should be more pricey than Sigma. They would perfectly fit in to the spot between Sigma and Leica.

You have a point, but I flip it around and look at it in almost the opposite way. The market I’m positing will indeed look at first-party lenses first - but they need to have affordable premium options from a name they recognize.

Currently Panasonic is offering lenses and cameras mostly in the mid-range.

That may be where we disagree. The way I see the market breaking down:

• You have the basic hobbyist, who buys the camera and the kit lens and maybe a travel zoom like the 28-200.
• Once they grow out of that stage, there’s lenses like the 24-105 - but they aren’t premium lenses, they’re just a level up from the basics. I’d put the f/1.8 primes in here as well, as they’re perfect for a novice photographer starting to stretch and grow.
• This space left blank.
• The pro lenses, which are out of reach for all but the richest or most dedicated hobbyists.

It’s this third space that I want to target. That is where I think Panasonic can find a substantial number of new users, by giving them an upgrade path they can actually aspire to. If it’s in ‘only if I win the lottery’ territory, it can’t be aspirational.

But I think higher end cameras AND lenses are needed to attract more customers. Not only for the higher end cameras, also for the mid range. Customers need a upgrade path or something to dream of in the system. At the moment the upgrade path for many is out of the system to Nikon or Sony, who are offering those higher end options.

I think we agree on tactics. The difference is that you seem to think spending $2-3000 on an S-Pro lens that weighs two pounds is something a large number of hobbyists will do, and I couldn’t disagree more strongly.

 

[Travis Butler]

What about the Sigma Art f/1.4 or f/1.2 lenses? I have seen discussions online of photographers saying that the Sigma Art 40mm f/1.4 DG HSM / A es even better than the Lumix 50mm f/1.4 S PRO... and these Sigma Art lenses are not that expensive. Unfortunately I never had any Sigma Art lenses, but they have a very good reputation and some people say that they do have the so called "special sauce"

I haven’t looked at them much myself. ^^;; But if what Markus said is correct, they don’t fit either; they might fit the price guidelines, but you have to be pretty darn dedicated to carry around a normal prime weighing 1.2 kilos!

 

[Travis Butler]

To note, I’m basing my analysis on my experiences looking at film-era kits; I’ve seen literally hundreds of them at estate sales over the last decade, enough for a valid statistical sample. I’d like to think that gives me a pretty good idea of what people historically bought. What I see:

• You have the basic nifty fifty lens, f/1.7-2.0. This is a bit less than half of the kits I see.
• You have the premium f/1.4, usually 50mm but sometimes 55-58mm. These were very popular. They made almost the entire remaining half.
• You have the elite f/1.2, the ones the manufacturers pulled out all the stops on, like the legendary Minolta 58/1.2. The equivalent of the S-Pro. I’ve only seen 3 or 4 of them in the entire decade. I’ve seen more medium format Mamiya 645 camera kits than I’ve seen f/1.2s! And not by a small margin, either; I’ve seen at least 15 Mamiya’s, including one in a sale listing this past weekend.
• Finally, you had some that used a 28 or 35mm as the base lens, or a third-party like Vivitar. They were maybe 10%.

That’s why I see a hole in Panasonic’s lineup. Basic, premium, elite; those used to be the tiers, and premium was very popular while elite was almost nonexistent. I could see more of the elite tier being sold into the professional market where they didn’t end up at estate sales. But I’ve also seen a number of professionals whose family put their entire working kit into the sale, and almost all of them used the premium f/1.4 tier.

 

[xaviergut]

That’s why I see a hole in Panasonic’s lineup. Basic, premium, elite

Travis, tell me if this is correct with the 50mm L-Mount lenses:

Basic: Lumix f/1.8 + Sigma DG DN f/2

Premium: Lumix S PRO f/1.4 + Sigma DG DN Art f/1.4 + Sigma DG DN Art f/1.2

Elite: Leica Summicron f/2 SL + Leica Summicron f/2 SL APO + Leica Summilux f/1.4

 

[GeorgeHudetz]

Currently Panasonic is offering lenses and cameras mostly in the mid-range. But I think higher end cameras AND lenses are needed to attract more customers. Not only for the higher end cameras, also for the mid range. Customers need a upgrade path or something to dream of in the system. At the moment the upgrade path for many is out of the system to Nikon or Sony, who are offering those higher end options.

Yes, exactly. The S-pro lenses are not any more expensive than the Sony G-Master lenses, for example. Some are cheaper. So I think their pricing is in line with the rest of the industry in that regard. Which, yes, makes such lenses too expensive for many, but again, in L-mount we currently have plenty of "affordable" but excellent lenses. So I'd like to see them produce more S-Pro lenses.

 

[Travis Butler]

Travis, tell me if this is correct with the 50mm L-Mount lenses:

Basic: Lumix f/1.8 + Sigma DG DN f/2

Premium: Lumix S PRO f/1.4 + Sigma DG DN Art f/1.4 + Sigma DG DN Art f/1.2

Elite: Leica Summicron f/2 SL + Leica Summicron f/2 SL APO + Leica Summilux f/1.4

No, I don’t think so. That’s a misreading of what I’m suggesting; go back and look at my response to Quentin.

All three of the ones you list as Premium I would still put at Elite. They’re all big, heavy, expensive lenses where the manufacturer pulled out all the stops to make the best lens they could manage.

You seem to think that just having something “in the middle” is enough. It’s not. Putting the Leica lenses up there in the stratosphere doesn’t make the S Pro and Sigma Art lenses any cheaper, lighter or smaller. Even if they’re between the Leicas and the S 1.8. They’re still no-holds-barred lenses, and that makes them too large, heavy and expensive for “Premium”.

The difference I see between Premium and Elite is that a Premium lens is a high-quality lens made with reasonable constraints on size, weight and cost. It’s supposed to be a good lens, high-tier, but for everyday use by everyday people. That was the old film-era 50/1.4. A great step up from the base lens, whether it was the MC Rokkor-PG, the Pentax-M, the OM Zuiko Auto-S, or the Nikkor Ai-S - but it was affordable enough that almost as many people owned it as owned the kit lens. It sold systems.

Elite is no expense spared, no holds barred, made without regard to price or whether everyday people would want to lug it around all day. The old Minolta 58/1.2. A superlative lens, sets the standard, lets everyone know you’re a badass lens maker. But very few people actually buy it.

Let’s go back to automotive analogies. A Toyota Camry is basic practical transportation. A BMW sports sedan is a fast, fun car; but it’s practical enough for everyday use and cheap enough for a lot of people to own. A Ferrari Portofino will blow a BMW out of the water- but only a few people can afford one at $215,000 and there’s no way it’s an everyday-use car. Now add the McLaren Elva to the comparison, sitting up there at $1.7 million per car. Does that suddenly make the Portofino into a practical or affordable car matching the BMW?

 

[Markuswelder]

I think some of the issue might be that the plain Jane S lenses are a bit too good to be able to improve on, without getting into S Pro pricing territory. Take the 50mm, as far as I'm aware, it's the same lens that Leica adds their branding to, and sells as their own. Apparently.

 

[Quentinquirelino]

I would have no objection to that… after they make a more mid-tier premium line.

My point is that right now, there is nothing between the baseline and the pro lenses.

I think most of Panasonic lenses and Signs lenses are about mid-tier. The f1.8 line from Panasonic and the Contemporary Series from Sigma are all very capable lenses. All the Panasonic lenses are wether sealed and the S non pro lenses are reasonable priced and optical very good. Price wise I also would account the Art and Sports series from Sigma as mid-tier, but the quality is exceptionally, especially from the Art.

I would put the kit zooms, the 20-60 and 18-40, in low-tier. But only because of the price. The quality is almost to good. Maybe also the 28-200 is low-tier, but it's almost to expensive for low-tier. In the future maybe Meike and other Chinese manufacturer will add more to the low-tier, but I think it's not attractive for Panasonic to put to much effort in the low-tier.

The High-Tier would be the S pros and quality wise some Sigmas. And of course the Leicas.

And maybe I am out of touch with what the mainstream photography market is… but I can’t see anyone but the very very highest-end hobbyist spending more than $1500 on a lens, except in very special circumstances.

I think there are many hobbyists that would buy lenses for 2k and more.

.... They are not going to grow Panasonic’s market share.

I think it definitely would help Panasonic to get market share. Not because everyone would buy those lenses, but because there is an upgrade path, even when many customers don't go that path.

...
You have a point, but I flip it around and look at it in almost the opposite way. The market I’m positing will indeed look at first-party lenses first - but they need to have affordable premium options from a name they recognize.

People are used to higher prices that comes with first party options compared to third party. I would go even further and say that many who buy first party first would indicate equal prices compared to third party options with worse quality.

That may be where we disagree. The way I see the market breaking down:

• You have the basic hobbyist, who buys the camera and the kit lens and maybe a travel zoom like the 28-200.
• Once they grow out of that stage, there’s lenses like the 24-105 - but they aren’t premium lenses, they’re just a level up from the basics. I’d put the f/1.8 primes in here as well, as they’re perfect for a novice photographer starting to stretch and grow.
• This space left blank.
• The pro lenses, which are out of reach for all but the richest or most dedicated hobbyists.

Yes, we disagree.

...

I think we agree on tactics. The difference is that you seem to think spending $2-3000 on an S-Pro lens that weighs two pounds is something a large number of hobbyists will do, and I couldn’t disagree more strongly.

Yes, we disagree. I think there are enough who buy those lenses. For example I know a couple of camera stores that accepted preorders for the Nikon 35mm f1.2, even when was only rumored and they had a many preorders. Also Olympus/OMDS has needed years to fulfill the demand for the 150-400/4.5.

And even more there are potential costumes who are buying other systems, because those systems have more of those expensive lenses, even they would never buy them.