cascadian
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Latest "that system has it so why don't we?" thread
- Thread starter Jonathan-Mac
- Start date
GeorgeHudetz
Well-Known Member
I'd like to see more fast S-Pro primes. The 50/1.4 has such a stellar reputation - why not an 85, 35, 24, etc? Maybe after the new S1 bodies are released we will see a renewed focus on top-tier glass from Panasonic.
Quentinquirelino
Well-Known Member
Yes, S Pro lenses is something the system needs.
But not only S Pro primes, also the S pro zoom lineup seems incomplete without a fast 2.8 ultra wide zoom and something like a 100-400 or 100-500.
The Sigmas are excellent, but it would help to build more confidence in Panasonic's intensions in the system.
What's the point duplicating lenses Sigma already have? Lumix have been making lenses that weren't available, the amazing 1/2 size 1/2 weight 100mm macro, the small 18-40, the lightweight compact travel superzoom 28-200.
The Lumix Pro lenses are gigantic and generally 1.5-2x price of the Sigma, not sure what the demand for those was since release. I've no idea whether they'll make those again.
The Lumix Pro lenses are gigantic and generally 1.5-2x price of the Sigma, not sure what the demand for those was since release. I've no idea whether they'll make those again.
GeorgeHudetz
Well-Known Member
GeorgeHudetz
Well-Known Member
To me, the whole point of the S-Pro lenses are exactly what started this thread. If you read reviews out there that actually include S-Pro lenses, particularly those that compare them to the best from the other manufacturers, you often hear things like "special rendering" or "a perfect blend of sharpness and smoothness" which, according to the reviewer, set the S-Pro lenses apart. Most often, I see that in reviews of the 50/1.4, the 24-70 F2.8, and the 70-200 F2.8. And, even though they might not produce the absolute best bench numbers, there is something about the images they produce that are just beautiful. At least some people think that, anyway.
One can choose to believe this is real or not, but it similar to the praise heaped on Lecia's top-tier lenses, like some of their M-mount primes, or the APO L-mount lenses. You can complain all you want about Leica "diluting" their brand with the rebranded L-mount lenses, but those ultra-expensive APO lenses are pure Leica and really do stand out (or so I have been told by people who use them). They are out of reach for most of us, and even if one could afford such lenses, you have to wonder if it's worth all that money for that last bit of perfection. I'd certainly buy 'em all if I won the lottery, but short of that, probably not even a single one. Despite the fact that I REALLY want their 90-280.
But that's where the S-Pro lenses come in. Call me romantic, but I think it's interesting that those fast, S-Pro lenses came out early in the L-mount history, when, presumably, collaboration between Leica and Panasonic would have been intense. I like to think there is more than a little Leica DNA in those lenses, and that is why they produce the images that they do. And at prices 1/2 to 1/3 of Leica's APO lenses.
I think that if there were more lenses like that in L-mount - alongside some new, state-of-the-art S1 bodies - it would be boon to L-mount and regain a lot of cred, and, hopefully, some market share as well.
Anyway, hopefully some of you agree. But, if this just reads as George ramping up a rationalization to buy an S1RII and/or some S-Pro lenses, that wouldn't be far from the truth either.
One can choose to believe this is real or not, but it similar to the praise heaped on Lecia's top-tier lenses, like some of their M-mount primes, or the APO L-mount lenses. You can complain all you want about Leica "diluting" their brand with the rebranded L-mount lenses, but those ultra-expensive APO lenses are pure Leica and really do stand out (or so I have been told by people who use them). They are out of reach for most of us, and even if one could afford such lenses, you have to wonder if it's worth all that money for that last bit of perfection. I'd certainly buy 'em all if I won the lottery, but short of that, probably not even a single one. Despite the fact that I REALLY want their 90-280.
But that's where the S-Pro lenses come in. Call me romantic, but I think it's interesting that those fast, S-Pro lenses came out early in the L-mount history, when, presumably, collaboration between Leica and Panasonic would have been intense. I like to think there is more than a little Leica DNA in those lenses, and that is why they produce the images that they do. And at prices 1/2 to 1/3 of Leica's APO lenses.
I think that if there were more lenses like that in L-mount - alongside some new, state-of-the-art S1 bodies - it would be boon to L-mount and regain a lot of cred, and, hopefully, some market share as well.
Anyway, hopefully some of you agree. But, if this just reads as George ramping up a rationalization to buy an S1RII and/or some S-Pro lenses, that wouldn't be far from the truth either.
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GeorgeHudetz
Well-Known Member
TLDR: With L-Mount, we have a direct connection to one of the most storied lens manufacturers in the history of photography. We should celebrate that, not deride it. We should encourage Panasonic to make more "Leica-eque" S-Pro lenses, not eschew them. And yes, I think that red badge on the S-Pro lenses means something.
Quentinquirelino
Well-Known Member
Because those lenses are necessary for a system and should be available first party. I know, it's a little different in the L-Mount alliance and every member is perse first party. But for many people that's not the same and there is still a doubt for compatibility and also doubt about the long-term commitment of the brand Lumix to the System. There are many, amateurs and pros alike, for them the so called holy trinity of zooms, a fast 2.8 standard, a fast 2.8 short telephoto and a fast 2.8 ultra wide zoom are elementary and many only buy fro first party manufacturer. The same goes for 1.4, or nowadays more 1.2, pro level primes. There are a lot of customers that don't take the system for serious without those lenses from first party.
Besides that. As George said, Lumix lenses have different characteristics compared to Sigma lenses. Especially for people that buy high level glass, even small differences can be important differences. So it would be great, if Panasonic would offer alternatives to Sigma lenses.
Travis Butler
Well-Known Member
You seem to be making an argument for halo lenses. And yeah, having ‘halo’ products is cool and might possibly shift some peoples’ opinions.
I think it’s more important to build lenses that a large number of people will actually buy and use. What’s going to sell more systems? “I want to buy this lens if I win the lottery!”? Or “If I save up some, I can buy this lens and start using it right away!”?
I’m not saying to only make cheap lenses. I’m not saying to avoid aspirational lenses! But if they’re going to be aspirational lenses, they need to be ones you can actually aspire to.
Leica is already making the ultimate halo lenses for L-mount. What I’d like to see is a focus on ‘affordable premium’ lenses - expensive but still within a serious hobbyist’s budget, with a design goal of something a little special in IQ and build. Without trying for the 99th percentile that adds so much to the cost, size and weight of the lens - this should be something fun to go out and shoot with every day, not something you only bring out for special occasions. A Lexus or a BMW, not a Rolls Royce or a Ferrari. The PanLeica 15/1.8 was a lens like that in M4/3.
I don't disagree with any of the above posts. Both arguments are valid. We are imitating the Panasonic Lumix board room 
Most humans also aspire to stuff they can't get and there is an associated feeling of luxury if the same brand makes it. There are endless examples, Ford vs Ferrari etc.
BTW if I was a 50mm lover I'd have the Lumix 50mm f1.4 and not the Sigma f1.2... The Lumix has the prestige even by it's size. These can become affordable or just within reach on the used market. 2x unopened lenses finished on Ebay UK today but had fungus from flood damage or something
Most humans also aspire to stuff they can't get and there is an associated feeling of luxury if the same brand makes it. There are endless examples, Ford vs Ferrari etc.
BTW if I was a 50mm lover I'd have the Lumix 50mm f1.4 and not the Sigma f1.2... The Lumix has the prestige even by it's size. These can become affordable or just within reach on the used market. 2x unopened lenses finished on Ebay UK today but had fungus from flood damage or something
I could actually use one in the Waterworks where the swans, geese and more follow people for food and therefore are compliant, the swans do chase dogs which would be a good capture to get.
A goose even posed for me on one leg, kinda begging
You see lusting for the beyond reach
GeorgeHudetz
Well-Known Member
I think we are saying the same thing. I too want halo lenses that a serious enthusiast could actually buy, i.e., S-Pro, but with that special Lecia sauce to set us apart. That was exactly my point.
And yes, affordable lenses are extremely important as well. I LOVE my 28-200. But I do think that Panasonic has been emphasizing affordable lenses for the past few years - which, again, is great - but I'd like to see them add a few more S-Pros as this point.
And, for the record, I conflated this thread with one over on DPReview that started with a post about the "specialness" of the 50/1.4 S-Pro. But I suppose my point works well in both threads.
Man, getting old sucks.
Travis Butler
Well-Known Member
I'm not quite sure we are. Maybe I'm seeing the S-Pros wrong, but they seem to be those 99th percentile attempts I was talking about - the S-Pro 50/1.4 is over 2 lbs and $2300 list! That's expensive luxury car, not middle class luxury. That's rich hobbyist territory, and it's way heavier than I'd want for a daily carry. It's also so expensive that I'd be very wary of using it as a daily carry, because if I drop it I'm out a big chunk of money.
What I had in mind is something reduced to at least half that price and weight, if not more. It won't be 99th percentile, but it doesn't have to be. It should be premium - quality build, some 'special sauce' as you say in the rendering, very much a lens worthy of the extra price over the 50/1.8 - but without that push for removing every possible flaw that makes the S-Pro so large, heavy and expensive. Something like what a 50/1.4 was in the film days; a nice and high-quality step over the 50 1.7/1.8/2.0 kit lens, without being so expensive and heavy as the flagship f/1.2s.
As I said, we've already got Leica for high-end halo lenses. I put the S-Pros in that category. (Yes, I know the S-Pro 50/1.4 is $2300 and the Leica Summilux 50/1.4 is $6600. They're still both priced well out of what I'd call serious hobbyist territory, so it doesn't really matter if it's $1000 over or $5000 over; either one is more than a small minority would want to spend.) And I agree Panasonic has nice affordable lenses. What I don't see in their lineup is a tier in between - high quality and a Really Nice Lens, a step up from their 'affordable' tier, but without trying to pull out all the stops.
Tell me about it.
I really want to feel well enough to get out and start shooting again on a regular basis.
Markuswelder
Well-Known Member
Yeah, 100% I have the Panny Leica 15 & 25mm, and they're exactly what you say. Good quality lenses that produce excellent results, not cheap but not so expensive you're uncomfortable taking them with you all the time, for fear of damaging them.
I'm honestly not sure what Panasonic could do in L mount, perhaps expand on the 50 to include a 24, 35 and 85mm f1.2 or f1.4? I think I can understand what they're doing at the moment, trying to get some volume sales and build their customer base. Both will fund the R&D of future more premium products.
Personally, I'm more than happy with what the plain Jane S lenses provide in both image and build quality, I guess it's a relatively fine line to figure out what the percentage of premium and more consumer oriented product line should be, to maintain profitability as well as increase their customer base, I'm glad I'm not the one tasked with it.
I do think Panasonic has managed it pretty well in m4/3, they're still there, haven't had to have been bailed out, gone broke and then sell out, unlike the other major manufacturer we won't name, so they must be getting something right. You'd have to say that would give us a fairly good insight into the future direction they'll take, except that the Leica branding won't be featured in the branding. Maybe a slightly less big and heavy S Pro line? Just like their PL lenses are in m4/3. Not the absolute best, but a good step up from the G lenses
Travis Butler
Well-Known Member
No, I think that's exactly the wrong thing to do. As I said above, I think the 50/1.4 is already well outside of the category I'm thinking of.
What I'm talking about is something like a 50/1.4 that doesn't use 13 elements with multiple aspherical and ED surfaces. Where they aren't cramming in lots of heavy, expensive glass to correct every possible flaw - instead doing a good, solid design that isn't striving for perfection, but is still great IQ that's an obvious improvement over the 50/1.8. And follow that philosophy throughout the line - high-quality designs that stop at the point where they'd have to start getting complex just to eke out that last little bit of speed or IQ.
I'm not looking for more flagship lenses like the S-Pro 50/1.4, that very few people will buy. I'm suggesting something that a hobbyist with one of the 'inexpensive' lenses can be excited to move up to, but priced low enough (and small/light enough!) that a lot of people will move up to it. In USD, I'm thinking a price class somewhere around $1000-1500; a truly exceptional model (like a 'Primum' 28-200) might go up to $2000, but it should be the exception and not the rule. Affordable premium.
The S-Pro 16-35 actually fits. The S-Pro 70-200/4 squeaks in on price, but I think it's too large and heavy for the market category I'm thinking of; anything big enough to come with a tripod foot would be. The 24-70/2.8 is both too expensive and too heavy.
xaviergut
LMF-Patron
Travis, I think you are describing this one perfectly well:
SIGMA 50mm F2 DG DN | Contemporary
The SIGMA 50mm F2 DG DN | Contemporary is a classic standard prime focal length lens, featuring a fast F2 maximum aperture, exquisite I series styling and all-metal construction, and image quality that rivals much larger, more expensive glass.
www.sigmaphoto.com
By the way, all the Sigma Contemporary DG DN f/2 line (20 mm, 24mm, 35mm, 50mm and 65mm) is excellent. I have the Sigma 65mm DG DN and is an outstanding lens. I also have the Lumix 50mm S PRO f/1.4 and they are very similar in performance, specially for portraits. The Sigma is way more affordable...
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Travis Butler
Well-Known Member
An earlier poster was asking for first-party lenses, so I was sticking to that.Travis, I think you are describing this one perfectly well:
SIGMA 50mm F2 DG DN | Contemporary
The SIGMA 50mm F2 DG DN | Contemporary is a classic standard prime focal length lens, featuring a fast F2 maximum aperture, exquisite I series styling and all-metal construction, and image quality that rivals much larger, more expensive glass.
By the way, all the Sigma Contemporary DG DN f/2 line (20 mm, 24mm, 35mm, 50mm and 65mm) is excellent. I have the Sigma 65mm DG DN and is an outstanding lens. I also have the Lumix 50mm S PRO f/1.4 and they are very similar in performance, specially for portraits. The Sigma is way more affordable...
But yes, the Sigma is close to what I want. Just not quite there.
First, I would actually like to go as fast as f/1.4. And I’m willing to give up a little ‘neutral’ IQ (more below) to get it.
Second, I’ve owned several Sigmas, going back to the old 30/2.8 EX DN I got for a NEX-5 I was trying to like. And while they’ve all been competently ‘neutral’ in IQ, I’ve found them all bland to one degree or another - flat rendering that compressed tonal ranges in things like clouds; good levels of detail but without much microcontrast; neutral but unexciting color. I vividly remember shooting the 30/2.8 Art for M4/3 side-by-side with the Panny 20/1.8, during a controlled burn at the prairie overlook from last week; the distant smoke clouds that billowed with tonal detail on the Panny were flat and lifeless with the Sigma. The 45/2.8 Contemporary I got with my fp is better, but still lacking.
George was talking about ‘special sauce’, and I think he had a good point. I remember seeing analyses of the ‘Leica look’ that attribute it to a bit of uncorrected spherical aberration; I don’t have the optical expertise to judge for myself, but it seemed at least plausible. And I would want that ‘Primum’ line to have some optical character, not just the blandly neutral look of the Sigma lenses I’ve owned. On M4/3, the PanLeica 15/1.8 and Panny 20/1.8 had it, along with the PanLeica 20-60/2.8-4; the PanLeica 25/1.4 had it in pics I saw, but I never got to use one.
If any of this makes sense. ^^;;
Quentinquirelino
Well-Known Member
I do think, Panasonic should bring a S pro lens line with f1.2 or f1.4 primes, f2.8 zooms, and a 100-400/500 that actually can be in the > 2000 $ or even around 3000 $ price range. And that they should make it es perfect as they can make it.
I think that price ranges are okay for first party option and also there are enough who would buy those lenses. I don't think this prices are out of reach for many customers. But if they are, we still have Sigma as very good alternatives. And also should Panasonic differentiated the S pro Line from Sigma in price. Panasonic lenses not only can, they should be more pricey than Sigma. They would perfectly fit in to the spot between Sigma and Leica.
Currently Panasonic is offering lenses and cameras mostly in the mid-range. But I think higher end cameras AND lenses are needed to attract more customers. Not only for the higher end cameras, also for the mid range. Customers need a upgrade path or something to dream of in the system. At the moment the upgrade path for many is out of the system to Nikon or Sony, who are offering those higher end options.
xaviergut
LMF-Patron
What about the Sigma Art f/1.4 or f/1.2 lenses? I have seen discussions online of photographers saying that the Sigma Art 40mm f/1.4 DG HSM / A es even better than the Lumix 50mm f/1.4 S PRO... and these Sigma Art lenses are not that expensive. Unfortunately I never had any Sigma Art lenses, but they have a very good reputation and some people say that they do have the so called "special sauce"