Latest S1ii rumours

[pdk42]

I remember you citing Roger Cigala before on this subject, but if a lens is producing blurry details surely you'll only achieve higher resolution blurry details.

I guess a full explanation would get into Airy discs and MTFs, but I think an intuitive understanding can be gained by thinking in terms of the perfect lens and the perfect sensor. A perfect lens on a low res sensor will deliver acuity limited by the sensor. A perfect sensor with a soft lens will deliver acuity limited by the lens. With both being imperfect the end result is the product of them both. Improve either and the end result improves.

 

[Travis Butler]

It died because Panasonic didn’t sell enough of them. The market (that’s you, me, and millions of others) didn’t spend enough of our cash on cameras like the GM5.

Of course it died because Panasonic didn’t sell enough of them. However…

I had one briefly (bought used). I sold it again because the EVF was too small, it didn’t have an articulating screen, and it had only one dial. I loved its size, but ultimately, for me, its small size forced too big a compromise over its usability.

…while you did this (and it’s a fair evaluation), most of the detractors I saw didn’t. They dismissed it as a toy, complained it could never possibly be shootable, and then sheepishly (or defiantly!) admitted they’d never even seen one in person, let alone held one and tried to shoot with it. That’s the attitude I’m complaining about, and that’s the reason I don’t think it got a fair shake.

The PenF suffered a similar lack-of-sales fate, but for me I loved the PenF. It was big enough to give very decent handling and its IQ was good. Its only fault in my eyes was a rather high launch price.

That’s another part of the attitude that bugs me. There was a time, not so long ago, when people recognized that miniaturizing something took extra effort, and were willing to pay for the effort (and the smaller, more expensive components required). Like micro-component stereos, which flourished briefly before their niche got eaten by amplified speakers hooked to a digital music source. Or Minox and other subminiatures on the camera side.

But now there’s this insistence that if it’s small, it has to be cheap, no matter what work went into it. You see the same thing in smartphones - if it’s small, it should be cheap, even if it has the guts and performance of a flagship phone.

But it got mixed reviews, mainly because of poor AF (and it is poor - worse than the Olympus 16Mp cameras it was sitting next to on the display shelf). It was good enough for me, but I know many people who tried the PenF and didn’t cope because photos of their child/dog/cat etc were constantly OOF.

I can’t really speak to that personally, since I almost never shoot action; the few times I do are things like birds in flight, and it seemed to do well enough on those.

 

[xaviergut]

More specs of the S1R ii:

New Lumix S1rII specs: Dual native ISO, 1/8000 shutter and mid March shipment start - L mount system camera rumors and news

Here are some additional Lumix S1rII specs that I haven't posted before: 44,3/45,9 megapixel CMOS full frame sensor without lowpass filter H.264/MPEG-4 AVC, H.265/HEVC, Apple ProRes, Apple ProRes RAW; MP4: H.264/MPEG-4 AVC, H.265/HEVC 4:3, 3:2, 16:9, 1:1, 65:24, 2:1 SRGB, AdobeRGB / 14 stops...

www.l-rumors.com

• 44,3/45,9 megapixel CMOS full frame sensor without lowpass filter
• H.264/MPEG-4 AVC, H.265/HEVC, Apple ProRes, Apple ProRes RAW; MP4: H.264/MPEG-4 AVC, H.265/HEVC 4:3, 3:2, 16:9, 1:1, 65:24, 2:1
• SRGB, AdobeRGB / 14 stops (V-Log) (Dynamic Range Expansion (Log) ON)/13 stops (V-Log) (Dynamic Range Expansion (L max. 8.144 x 5.424 pixel, High Res.: 16.288 x 10.848 Pixel
  [8.1K] 8128×4288, [8K] 7680×4320, [6.4K] 6432×4288, [5.9K] 5888×3312, [5.8K] 5760×3040, [C4K] 4096×2160, [4K] 3840×2 [FHD] 1920×1080
  Type autofocus Phase Hybrid AF (779 AF-area)
• DUAL Native ISO (AUTO, LOW, HIGH)
• 1/8.000 shutter speed in electronic shutter modus
• NEW: Photo Style “Cinelike A2“
• All-intra: C4K/4K/3.3K 800Mbps (USB-SSD), 600Mbps, 400Mbps; FHD 200Mbps
• Apple ProRes: 5.8K/C4K/3.3K (USB-SSD); FHD
• Ships in mid March

No low-pass filter?

But the 65:24 x-pan aspect ratio is back!!

 

[Quentinquirelino]

....

• 44,3/45,9 megapixel CMOS full frame sensor without lowpass filter
• H.264/MPEG-4 AVC, H.265/HEVC, Apple ProRes, Apple ProRes RAW; MP4: H.264/MPEG-4 AVC, H.265/HEVC 4:3, 3:2, 16:9, 1:1, 65:24, 2:1
• SRGB, AdobeRGB / 14 stops (V-Log) (Dynamic Range Expansion (Log) ON)/13 stops (V-Log) (Dynamic Range Expansion (L max. 8.144 x 5.424 pixel, High Res.: 16.288 x 10.848 Pixel
  [8.1K] 8128×4288, [8K] 7680×4320, [6.4K] 6432×4288, [5.9K] 5888×3312, [5.8K] 5760×3040, [C4K] 4096×2160, [4K] 3840×2 [FHD] 1920×1080
  Type autofocus Phase Hybrid AF (779 AF-area)

The resolution could be an indicator that it's not the IMX366 in the S1RII.

No lowpass filter?

Everything else would be a surprise. Panasonic usually doesn't use low pass filters. Only exception in the last years was the S1H. If they don't mind to pass on the lowpass filters for 24 Mpix, they don't use it for higher resolution cameras.

 

[RBecker]

The resolution could be an indicator that it's not the IMX366 in the S1RII.

The resolution is actually the best proof that it is the IMX366! 44,3/45,9 is exactly the value from the data sheet...

 

[Quentinquirelino]

The resolution is actually the best proof that it is the IMX366! 44,3/45,9 is exactly the value from the data sheet...

No, it's not. The resolution in the datasheet of the sensor is 44.73 Mpix (4192x5460 Pixel).

 

[RBecker]

No, it's not. The resolution in the datasheet of the sensor is 44.73 Mpix (4192x5460 Pixel).

And the total number of pixel on chip is 45.86 which is rounded 45.9. This is a perfect match. Maybe Panasonic has decided not to use all active pixels? Or do we have to reduce the active pixels by the pixel needed for phase detect?

 

[RBecker]

First of all: there is presumedly also another camera coming at the NAB2025, I would definitely wait until you know what kind of camera that is.

Secondly: a stacked sensor doesn't make it automatically a better camera, might even be the opposite for dynamic range etc.

I would first want to know what the real values are about ISO, low-light, dynamic range, rolling shutter etc before we can even discuss this properly.

For the NAB2025 I expect a successor to the S1H and/or box version. Using the technology from the S1RII (to save develeopment), but with different housing and connections. Panasonic was always very good in professional video and they will use the new functions also on that side. The only question how it will look like. I do not expect 2 bodies (like S1H and box) again…

 

[Quentinquirelino]

And the total number of pixel on chip is 45.86 which is rounded 45.9. This is a perfect match. Maybe Panasonic has decided not to use all active pixels? Or do we have to reduce the active pixels by the pixel needed for phase detect?

Well, according to specifications, the S1RII has 45.9 total Mpix, that's about the same as the IMX366. But the S1RII has 44.3 effective Mpix, the imx366 has 44.9 effective MPix. The active resolution is about 44.2 Mpix from the S1RII and 44.7 Mpix on the IMX366.

 

[pdk42]

Well, according to specifications, the S1RII has 45.9 total Mpix, that's about the same as the IMX366. But the S1RII has 44.3 effective Mpix, the imx366 has 44.9 effective MPix. The active resolution is about 44.2 Mpix from the S1RII and 44.7 Mpix on the IMX366.

What's a few Mp between friends?

 

[CharlesH]

i noticed a S1Rii feature on the rumor site that I have and like on the Sony A1.

The Lumix S1Rii also offers new sensor protection: when the camera is switched off, the mechanical shutter can be closed automatically to protect the sensor from dust when the lens is changed.

My experience is this helps, and I need to clean the A1 sensor less often than my other cameras that don't have this feature. Good for Panasonic.

 

[Oíche]

i noticed a S1Rii feature on the rumor site that I have and like on the Sony A1.

The Lumix S1Rii also offers new sensor protection: when the camera is switched off, the mechanical shutter can be closed automatically to protect the sensor from dust when the lens is changed.

My experience is this helps, and I need to clean the A1 sensor less often than my other cameras that don't have this feature. Good for Panasonic.

Make sure you don't touch it, you can prod a sensor but not the shutter. YT photographer Matt Granger had a freak accident where he destroyed a new Z8 or Z9 this way when the camera fell on something or sunlight melted the shutter or something when the lens acted like a magnifying glass. I think it was repairable but a very expensive repair.

So the shutter gets the debris/dust and the worst sticky pollen and you can't clean that like a sensor. I'm not sure I'd want that TBH and there is always detritus inside the camera to some degree. But good to know it can be switched on/off for your own delectation.

I'm reminded of a time where changing lenses too many times in May in the mountains resulted in dozens of pollen spots on every photo and I literally spent weeks removing them in LR. That's why I'll now only use 24-105 or 70-300 on such trips without lens changes whatsoever, the sensor cover could help in those situations to some degree I suppose but I've read arguments for/against.

 

[CharlesH]

the sensor cover could help in those situations to some degree I suppose but I've read arguments for/against.

The forums are full of this nonsense. My experience over several years is it is very helpful.

 

[Markuswelder]

. YT photographer Matt Granger had a freak accident where he destroyed a new Z8 or Z9 this way when the camera fell on something or sunlight melted the shutter or something when the lens acted like a magnifying glass. I think it was repairable but a very expensive repair.

Bit hard for that to happen when neither of those cameras actually have a mechanical shutter

 

[RBecker]

Bit hard for that to happen when neither of those cameras actually have a mechanical shutter

Both the Z8 and Z9 have a mechanical secure shutter. Not for exposure, just to cover the sensor. This could be damaged like any real shutter, but I expect a real shutter will be much more expensive to replace…
In general a lens looking at the sun could burn any shutter, but I think this situation will not be good for the sensor too

 

[Markuswelder]

Both the Z8 and Z9 have a mechanical secure shutter. Not for exposure, just to cover the sensor. This could be damaged like any real shutter, but I expect a real shutter will be much more expensive to replace…
In general a lens looking at the sun could burn any shutter, but I think this situation will not be good for the sensor too

That would be a sensor cover. Not a shutter mechanism

 

[RBecker]

That would be a sensor cover. Not a shutter mechanism

I called it secure shutter, sensor cover is the better wording. But in the end it is something like a mechanical shutter using the same basic design. So it will be fragile and can be damged quite easily. Very simple, but still fragile.

 

[Oíche]

Yip, it was over a year ago so excuse me for the fuzzy details, it was Z9 sensor protector. Anything like this is still an expensive repair as you could imagine and I think he claimed from insurance as he has a tonne of expensive gear, 20k lenses etc. Nearly as much as Charles haha

 

[Markuswelder]

Yip, it was over a year ago so excuse me for the fuzzy details, it was Z9 sensor protector. Anything like this is still an expensive repair as you could imagine and I think he claimed from insurance as he has a tonne of expensive gear, 20k lenses etc. Nearly as much as Charles haha

I'd just rip it out with some pointy pliers, & keep on shooting. Apparently people have done that with the actual mechanical shutter mechanism on m4/3 cameras, and then just used the E shutter from then on. (didn't watch the video)