News Interview with Panasonic

[dirk]

Here is an Interview with Panasonic about their future plans

 

[CharlesH]

That's an interesting interview. Trying to pick through the vision versus what the actual product direction will be. There is no doubt I've bought into the Panasonic wave of creation, especially since I shoot both photos and videos, and i have most if not all of the products mentioned in the interview. And also, will this wave lead to greater sales or greater market share? I'm not sure. I think most Canikon users still view Panasonic as an inferior brand, and will probably continue this way. Are there new customers coming along in the shrinking photo/video market? Panasonic will need to grab the few new customers if they are to make a difference. It's been mentioned the aggressive pricing is aimed at this. I know when I was young and starting out, the kind of package pricing we are seeing would be very attractive. The 28-200mm lens would be very attractive. Let's see where this all goes.

 

[pdk42]

Hmmm - not sure I learned a lot from this, other than the general message that they seem still strongly committed to all three of their current product lines - m43, FF, and professional video gear. But otherwise, it was typical Japanese corporate obfuscation in many ways. I found it amusing that when asked about the Leica partnership, all he could really point to was the incorporation of the Leica Monochrome profile into the G9ii. We're talking about a JPEG profile for goodness sake! (and yet the engineers somehow struggled to get Leica's certification for it!).

However, being positive about all this (and in general I am very positive about L-mount and Panasonic), I did notice these points:

- A big part of their strategy is positioning L-mount as an open system.
- They want to bring new partners into the system to offer wide choice to consumers (so 180 deg different to Canon).
- They see that they need to address both the consumer and "pro" markets with the system.
- They continue to develop for both stills and video users (no, hopefully no strategy to leave stills to Leica).

Seems to me that they want to be all things to all men. That could be seen as a negative, but for someone the size of Panasonic, they can probably pull it off.

 

[RBecker]

Hopefully they will not decide to bring all „pro“ users to Leica and Panasonic will only build cameras for the rest (what ever that means). The Leica bodies are great but also way off my budget. I strongly hope for a real successor for the S1R with better AF and higher speed

 

[dirk]

I found it amusing that when asked about the Leica partnership, all he could really point to was the incorporation of the Leica Monochrome profile into the G9ii. We're talking about a JPEG profile for goodness sake! (and yet the engineers somehow struggled to get Leica's certification for it!).

I agree. If you think about it, that he mentioned that in an YouTube interview, you might imagine what kind of fights that must have been behind the curtain between Leica and Panasonic. Normally, a Japanese would never critic something like that in the public, probably not even in private a meeting room. That sais a lot.

Hopefully they will not decide to bring all „pro“ users to Leica and Panasonic will only build cameras for the rest (what ever that means). The Leica bodies are great but also way off my budget. I strongly hope for a real successor for the S1R with better AF and higher speed

I do not think so. From a cost perspective, it does not make sense to offer specific bodies only for Leica and not with a delay also for Panasonic. The reason to create the L-Mount alliance was to combine efforts and to cut costs to be able to compete with that mount against the competition. You might remember that Sigma said on the press conference at Photokina in 2018, that they wanted to launch fullframe cameras anyway and this new alliance just does make sense then to do together.

What I get out of this interview:

• Sales of the GH6 did not slow down after the launch of the G9 Mk2. Sales of the G9 II seem to be in line with their expectations.
  
  
• The market changes dramatically also in the future and Panasonic is committed to adapt to be able to offer the right products for the time. The reason why they merge the professional and the consumer department together in April, was to combine the know-how. The borders between professional and consumer need disappear over the time. Features that were formerly for professionals only now suddenly are in demand on the consumer level too. They need more feedback from the consumer customers to have close contact to the market and what will be needed/expected soon also for professionals. The market changes too fast to keep that separated. In my view a good move to be ahead of the competition to identify user demand as early as possible.
  
  
• They want to have more partners in the L-Mount alliance. This is very good for us. That means for us even more native lenses, more bodies, more choice, more quality, more lenses outside of the usual paths.
  
  
• They are still committed to the MFT system and want to offer MFT and L-Mount FF at the same time. They see the benefit of the MFT system to offer something smaller, lighter and faster. I guess we all agree that neither the GH6 nor the G9II are in the category "smaller and lighter". Ergo I expect more MFT bodies, which are significantly smaller and lighter than the GH6 and G9II. Maybe a GX10 becomes finally reality?

Seems to me that they want to be all things to all men.

I think they have to. The market is shrinking and people expect nowadays both, photo and video from the same device. They are used to it from their smartphones. If you do not offer that, you are dead in the long run.

but for someone the size of Panasonic, they can probably pull it off.

Easily. I think the main problem is to interact with all alliance partners together and pull all together in the same direction. Help each other instead of block each other. We will see.

But we are in a phase now with all the current bodies and lenses, that we do not have to worry about it. The L-Mount is as of today one of the strongest systems out there. Nikon has a hard time to catch up on the lens line. Canon too.

 

[Babylonia]

I found it amusing that when asked about the Leica partnership, all he could really point to was the incorporation of the Leica Monochrome profile into the G9ii.
We're talking about a JPEG profile for goodness sake! (and yet the engineers somehow struggled to get Leica's certification for it!).

Than you missed the most important information. The whole electronic processing engine of "Leica" camera's is made by Panasonic, not Leica.
Leica never was an "electronic" based company, and still isn't. For "survival" they have to collaborate by one or other big "electronic" company.
(By history Leica was nearly bankrupt for several times already).

As for "Monochrome" profile. Of-course purely only extends to JPG images only.
(Not taking into account real Leica monochrome sensor camera bodies, with no RGB filters at all).

As the sensor itself is not a monochrome sensor, but RGB Bayer pattern, and data is saved in RAW RGB to get the real recorded sensor data.
So using "profiles", always is by processing algorithms for converting sensor data to manageable "handy" user available "monochrome" images.
Because output in monochrome strongly is related to the distribution of "colour" sensitization to get the right proportions related conditions.
Not a matter of simple shifting saturation of RGB values back to zero. There's far more to it than that.
Also not only in software, but possibly even in the colour tuning / purity of the individual RGB filters above the sensor itself.
(See more early "introducing pages" < example / text using a Leaf Digital camera back behind a Hasselblad > ).

And all that towards a more "emotional" monochrome output over the years, which is what Leica expects by their insight.
A philosophy of other brands may be different! Compare results / output of "panchromatic" and "orthographic" films of old film era.
Within the limits of a chemical formula. Each film brand had its "own" rules to get a "natural feeling" of how to fine-tune these B&W films.

Users themselves who use yellow or orange filters in front of a lens to display certain contrasts in "gray tone values", when using B&W films.
So a far more "personal matter", than a strictly convention to physics and the combination of human perception of gray scale tones.

By that, by today digital imaging.
Me myself do have a preference to process RAW - RGB images myself, by playing around into RGB channels
to get the right B&W "greyscale tones". That can be different for one or the other subject.

I never would choose a "monochrome" sensor camera (as offered by Leica).
As by that I am more strictly "fixed" to what Leica has in mind as for B&W output.
Or at most resort to using yellow/orange filters for the lens as well, to have more control over contrast and grey tones.
But always far more limited and not flexible, than making choices at processing RAW RGB images itself.
-

 

[CharlesH]

And all that towards a more "emotional" monochrome output over the years, which is what Leica expects by their insight.
A philosophy of other brands may be different! Compare results / output of "panchromatic" and "orthographic" films of old film era.
Within the limits of a chemical formula. Each film brand had its "own" rules to get a "natural feeling" of how to fine-tune these B&W films.

Thanks for the discussion about monochrome. As soon as Tsumura-san mentioned the difficulty of hitting Leica standards I realized how hard it could be to achieve monochrome with very specific targets. I had never thought about this before.

 

[pdk42]

Than you missed the most important information.

OK, I'm waiting to be educated...

The whole electronic processing engine of "Leica" camera's is made by Panasonic, not Leica.

Yes, I understand that. I also know that the real magic is in the ASICs that do the image processing rather than the CPU unit that drives the functions of the camera. I assume it's the image processing engine rather than the CPU they are referring to when they talk of the "Leica partnership".

Leica never was an "electronic" based company, and still isn't. For "survival" they have to collaborate by one or other big "electronic" company.
(By history Leica was nearly bankrupt for several times already).

Yes, agreed.

As for "Monochrome" profile. Of-course purely only extends to JPG images only.
(Not taking into account real Leica monochrome sensor camera bodies, with no RGB filters at all).

Yes.

As the sensor itself is not a monochrome sensor, but RGB Bayer pattern, and data is saved in RAW RGB to get the real recorded sensor data.
So using "profiles", always is by processing algorithms for converting sensor data to manageable "handy" user available "monochrome" images.
Because output in monochrome strongly is related to the distribution of "colour" sensitization to get the right proportions related conditions.
Not a matter of simple shifting saturation of RGB values back to zero. There's far more to it than that.

"Proiles" are sets of processing rules for the conversion of the raw data into a rendered image. Nearly every digital camera ever made has some profiles (or "filters") built in that create various image styles. It's basic stuff and it's not really that complicated. IMHO, there's nothing special in the Leica Monochrome profile apart from it being branded Leica. It's just an attempt to copy Fuji with their "Classic Chrome" profile. I'm yet to see any in-camera profile that can't be copied in PP with appropriate playing around.

Also not only in software, but possibly even in the colour tuning / purity of the individual RGB filters above the sensor itself.
(See more early "introducing pages" < example / text using a Leaf Digital camera back behind a Hasselblad > ).

The CFA is indeed a bit of "special sauce" that the manufacturers throw in. But I don't see how that has anything to do with the Leica partnership since Panasonic have been doing great colour for a long time.

And all that towards a more "emotional" monochrome output over the years, which is what Leica expects by their insight.

Well, I think it's all marketing fluff. I'll bet a beer or two that there's no "Leica insight" into this apart from someone in marketing saying "hey, let's get in on this Fuji Classic Chrome stuff. We need a name. How about 'Leica Monochrome'?".

A philosophy of other brands may be different! Compare results / output of "panchromatic" and "orthographic" films of old film era.
Within the limits of a chemical formula. Each film brand had its "own" rules to get a "natural feeling" of how to fine-tune these B&W films.

Yes, but digital is a completely different matter and you can create almost any look you like, so long as it's a mix of the colours that the sensor is sensitive to.

Users themselves who use yellow or orange filters in front of a lens to display certain contrasts in "gray tone values", when using B&W films.
So a far more "personal matter", than a strictly convention to physics and the combination of human perception of gray scale tones.

To a large degree, these old school colour filters can be emulated in digital.

By that, by today digital imaging.
Me myself do have a preference to process RAW - RGB images myself, by playing around into RGB channels
to get the right B&W "greyscale tones". That can be different for one or the other subject.

I don't do a lot of B&W, but my LR preset catalogue has a selection of B&W styles in there.

I never would choose a "monochrome" sensor camera (as offered by Leica).
As by that I am more strictly "fixed" to what Leica has in mind as for B&W output.
Or at most resort to using yellow/orange filters for the lens as well, to have more control over contrast and grey tones.
But always far more limited and not flexible, than making choices at processing RAW RGB images itself.
-

Yes, you can get a long way with profiles (incl the LUT concept that Panasonic have now introduced), but I agree that there are some remaining compromises compared to a pure mono sensor/film with real coloured filters in front of the lens.

 

[Babylonia]

My goodness, I didn't realise when writing messages here.
That every sentence you write is criticized and weighed on a personal "moderator member" gold scale.

I just want to contribute in a positive way to the L-mount community that there is much more “behind” technology,
collaboration and strictly written agreements between companies than what many users in general do realize.
Even far more elaborated than you realise yourself “personally”.
(I doubt you are employee of one of these companies, and have any insight of these companies agreements).

Your personal "agree or not agree" answers is not the keyword at all.
It comes down to the backgrounds and understanding of it. Nothing more, nothing less.
Every company is doing the best what can be achieved within their knowledge and today technical possibilities.
-

 

[pdk42]

A few responses:

My goodness, I didn't realise when writing messages here.
That every sentence you write is criticized and weighed on a personal "moderator member" gold scale.

1) I responded as I did with in-line comments because I found your comments interesting and wanted to respond to them one by one.
2) I did not "criticise" your comments. If you read them you see I used the word "agree" a lot.
3) My comments are my personal view and nothing to do with me being a moderator.

I just want to contribute in a positive way to the L-mount community that there is much more “behind” technology,
collaboration and strictly written agreements between companies than what many users in general do realize.
Even far more elaborated than you realise yourself “personally”.
(I doubt you are employee of one of these companies, and have any insight of these companies agreements).

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. But:
1) I appreciate your wanting to contribute in a positive way and that's how I read your original post. Please post more!
2) I have no insight into Leica or Panasonic. I was simply giving my view.
3) The fact remains that concrete examples of the Leica/Panasonic L^2 partnership are hard to find and this example of the Leica Monochrome profile sounds like a very small and trivial one.

Your personal "agree or not agree" answers is not the keyword at all.

Sure, they are just my views. I never claimed otherwise.

It comes down to the backgrounds and understanding of it. Nothing more, nothing less.
Every company is doing the best what can be achieved within their knowledge and today technical possibilities.
-

I think what Panasonic, Leica, and other companies have done with digital cameras and optics over the past twenty years is quite spectacular and has given us consumers quality and performance that we could never have dreamed of. We are living in a photographic paradise if we look at it objectively.

But on forums like this, talking about what the companies are doing and what we think about it is all part of the fun.


So, in summary, please don't take umbrage with my post. I was trying to respond to your points and to generate some conversation.

 

[CharlesH]

I took a look at the LEICA Monochrome Photo Style on my G9II. First it is very similar to the L.Monochrome D style, which we also have on S5II. The main difference I can see is that the dark darks are just not quite as dark with the LEICA Monochrome style.

I am NOT a monochrome shooter at all, and don't understand or appreciate the subtle differences between these styles. I do expect if you are a monochrome shooter you would find other differences, and perhaps reasons to like that style more. Here is one quick scene, in color and then in LEICA Monochrome.

• Panasonic - DC-G9M2
• LEICA DG 12-60/F2.8-4.0
• 16.0 mm
• ƒ/4
• 1/400 sec
• Pattern
• Manual exposure
• ISO 100

• Panasonic - DC-G9M2
• LEICA DG 12-60/F2.8-4.0
• 16.0 mm
• ƒ/4
• 1/400 sec
• Pattern
• Manual exposure
• ISO 100

 

[pdk42]

I am NOT a monochrome shooter at all, and don't understand or appreciate the subtle differences between these styles.

No, me neither. In fact, I never use any in-camera profiles because once you do so, there’s no going back. If you shoot raw, you can re-create any of them later in post processing, and more. When I do mono output, I usually use the Nik Silver Efex tool and it has an enormous range of effects and pre-built profiles that I can play with on a high quality monitor, on my desk, at my leisure.

I do expect if you are a monochrome shooter you would find other differences, and perhaps reasons to like that style more.

I guess there’s a certain “back to basics“ feel of taking in-camera mono images and I can understand why it might appeal to some. I’ve tried from time to time using my Pen F in mono mode (especially since everyone raved about its “Mono 3” profile being like the old Ilford Tri-X Pan), but I was always disappointed with the results and invariably went back to the raw (I always shot raw + JPEG when I did this) and processed any half-decent shots in LR/Nik.

 

[dirk]

As far as I remember, you have more dynamic range if you use a camera with monochrome sensor, but neither if you convert an RGB image into b&w nor if you use a preset

 

[CharlesH]

No, me neither. In fact, I never use any in-camera profiles because once you do so, there’s no going back. If you shoot raw, you can re-create any of them later in post processing, and more. When I do mono output, I usually use the Nik Silver Efex tool and it has an enormous range of effects and pre-built profiles that I can play with on a high quality monitor, on my desk, at my leisure.

If you use Lightroom, it imports the Panasonic color profiles from whatever Panasonic camera you are using, These are below the Adobe profiles, and are called "Camera Matching" profiles. So you can shoot RAW and apply one of these profiles, and go back if you want. I don't know if other photo editing programs have this feature with Panasonic cameras.

 

[pdk42]

As far as I remember, you have more dynamic range if you use a camera with monochrome sensor, but neither if you convert an RGB image into b&w nor if you use a preset

Yes, that's true because the lack of a CFA means that more light reaches the sensels. More light = better SNR = better DR.