Interesting article on the S9 by Richard Butler

[pdk42]

DPR, but a decent article nonetheless.

Why camera makers don't seem to care about photographers, and why you shouldn't worry about that​

https://m.dpreview.com/opinion/6659577941/why-camera-makers-don-t-seem-to-care-about-photographers-and-why-you-shouldn-t-worry

 

[dirk]

In the first part I thought Richard Butler read my old comment here:

Post in thread 'The S9 is selling well apparently !' https://l-mount-forum.com/community/threads/the-s9-is-selling-well-apparently.578/post-11459

 

[AlanC]

…camera lineups increasingly aren't going to be a progressive hierarchy of models differentiated by price; they're going to be a chaotic array of different models for different needs, trying to appeal to different audiences.

This is not good. If the manufacturer of your system of choice decides not to pursue some particular audience, and you happen to be a member of that audience, then you may end up needing to switch systems.

And that shouldn't be seen as a threat: if camera makers can engage with "creators" and "vloggers" and audiences that don't currently buy cameras, it'll help fund the development of the next generation of camera, including the more photo-focused ones, and it'll encourage the continued expansion of lens options.

Will it?

For example, vloggers tend to want wide angle primes or zooms; they’re not going to be buying the sort of telephoto primes used by wildlife photographers. So what incentive does a manufacturer who wants to appeal to the vlogging audience have to produce (or keep producing) such lenses?

But there’s another trend that Richard seems to be ignoring: the whole Fujifilm X100VI thing. Fujifilm doubled production, then increased it an unspecified amount more, but it’s still just about impossible to find one in stock anywhere and the older versions are selling second hand for silly prices, as are a lot of older compacts of the type manufacturers have mostly abandoned. It seems like there may be a new, emerging market for stills cameras with people who want something better than their phones to take photos, but most manufacturers have set their sights on the vloggers and have stopped production of those cameras, with no successors planned, just as the demand is starting to increase.

 

[dirk]

This is not good. If the manufacturer of your system of choice decides not to pursue some particular audience, and you happen to be a member of that audience, then you may end up needing to switch systems.

I do not think that the manufacturers want to switch their audience. They want to broaden their customer base by adding more different audiences.

More cameras with different target groups. But at the sane time use as much of the same parts as possible.

Fuji was the first mover in that direction, others will follow.

So what incentive does a manufacturer who wants to appeal to the vlogging audience have to produce (or keep producing) such lenses?

They want to continue to sell such lenses to their old customer base. Why not selling two different lenses to two different customer groups? There is nothing wrong with that. More sales = more profit.

Car manufacturers do the same with their different models.

 

[dirk]

It seems like there may be a new, emerging market for stills cameras with people who want something better than their phones to take photos,

Yes, absolutely. The proove is not just the success of the Fuji X100V/VI, it is also the Leica Q3 & Q3 43, Ricoh GR3 / GR3x, Nikon Zf etc.

I think we will see more of this in 2025.

 

[Pete_W]

DPR, but a decent article nonetheless.

https://m.dpreview.com/opinion/6659577941/why-camera-makers-don-t-seem-to-care-about-photographers-and-why-you-shouldn-t-worry

Thanks for the link Paul.

I tend to agree with the article. Criticism of the S9 didn't make a lot of sense to me. If someone wants a camera with a viewfinder, mechanical shutter, additional control dials and buttons etc then the S5 line has all of that already. And updated firmware for the S5II/x has now retrofitted some of the S9's LUT capability.

I guess some people want all of what's in the S5II/x but in a smaller body. I get that but such a model would probably cost as much to produce as the S5II/x or maybe more due to the miniaturisation required, but how many would pay the same price for a smaller camera? If such a model was pitched at a lower price then Panasonic would have to sell a lot more to be profitable, and it would undermine S5II/s sales.

As someone who mostly does stills, I find the S9 to be a great ever-day carry camera.

 

[Jonathan-Mac]

As one of the comments when I looked yesterday observed, what many people are waiting for is a FF ILC designed primarily for photographers which is more compact than anything else available now. The S9 is the latest in line which is not that camera.

 

[AlanC]

how many would pay the same price for a smaller camera?

Me.

and it would undermine S5II/s sales.

Better for Panasonic to undermine their own sales than have someone else do it for them.

I also don't understand the antipathy towards the S9: if I didn't have my Sigma fp L then I'd have been extremely tempted by it for exactly the same reasons you bought yours, as an every day carry camera. I'd also have expected it to have a lot of appeal to the people who like Fujifilm cameras for their film simulations since the LUT feature offers even greater possibilities for custom "looks".

 

[dirk]

Better for Panasonic to undermine their own sales than have someone else do it for them.

Exactly

I also don't understand the antipathy towards the S9: if I didn't have my Sigma fp L then I'd have been extremely tempted by it for exactly the same reasons you bought yours, as an every day carry camera.

I agree. If there would be a pancake 28mm or 40mm lens available, I would not sell my S9. But the way I use cameras without an EVF, all lenses available at the moment are too heavy for my use case. My Ricoh GR3 is then the better alternative.

But apart of that, the S9 is a really good camera for photography.

 

[Pete_W]

Me.
Better for Panasonic to undermine their own sales than have someone else do it for them.

Fair point!

That's one sale. If a majority were less likely to pay the same price as an S5II then it would be problematic for Panasonic. This is what many believe happened when the GM5 replaced the GM1 - it added features and cost but didn't sell in large enough numbers until it was heavily discounted. Panasonic now seems to have abandoned smaller fully-featured m4/3 cameras like the GM and GX line. Sean from LUMIX Live indicated that the smaller cameras just didn't sell enough.

I also don't understand the antipathy towards the S9: if I didn't have my Sigma fp L then I'd have been extremely tempted by it for exactly the same reasons you bought yours, as an every day carry camera. I'd also have expected it to have a lot of appeal to the people who like Fujifilm cameras for their film simulations since the LUT feature offers even greater possibilities for custom "looks".

Panasonic have continued to promote the S9 quite heavily and the price hasn't changed much so I hope that means it is selling well. Most of the complaints come from the long-term camera enthusiasts, especially stills photographers. Hopefully the "new market" that Panasonic is targeting is responding. I'd hate to see the S9 go the way of the GM5.

 

[Pete_W]

I agree. If there would be a pancake 28mm or 40mm lens available, I would not sell my S9. But the way I use cameras without an EVF, all lenses available at the moment are too heavy for my use case. My Ricoh GR3 is then the better alternative.

But apart of that, the S9 is a really good camera for photography.

I've been using my S9 with small Sigma contemporary primes but I put the 20-60mm lens on the other day. While it looked a bit chunky on the S9, it's quite a light lens and I was surprised at how well balanced it felt and it was easy to hold the camera. It's made me rethink whether I really need to buy the 18-40mm.

 

[Jonathan-Mac]

I also don't understand the antipathy towards the S9: if I didn't have my Sigma fp L then I'd have been extremely tempted by it for exactly the same reasons you bought yours, as an every day carry camera. I'd also have expected it to have a lot of appeal to the people who like Fujifilm cameras for their film simulations since the LUT feature offers even greater possibilities for custom "looks".

I'm a fan of Fujifilm though the different jpeg profiles have never been a huge part of that simply because they're mostly very, very similar. The LUT features in the S9 I'm sure are much better and more flexible. The antipathy towards the S9 though is down to the benefits of it's small size & LUT functionality being more than cancelled out by it's lack of viewfinder, mechanical shutter and any kind of sealing, plus it's price (for a camera that lacks those three things).

 

[AlanC]

Panasonic now seems to have abandoned smaller fully-featured m4/3 cameras like the GM and GX line. Sean from LUMIX Live indicated that the smaller cameras just didn't sell enough.

The G100(D) is comparatively small (taller, thanks to the viewfinder hump, but narrower than the GX7), and Sean has said that it's sold very well, despite not having IBIS. I don't know what to make of it all: Sean seems to say some contradictory things...

 

[pdk42]

The G100(D) is comparatively small (taller, thanks to the viewfinder hump, but narrower than the GX7), and Sean has said that it's sold very well, despite not having IBIS. I don't know what to make of it all: Sean seems to say some contradictory things...

He'll say whatever the upper management tell him to say !

 

[Oíche]

It's made me rethink whether I really need to buy the 18-40mm.

An extra 6° horizontal view, 1/2 the weight again, far smaller and made for the S9. Less intimidating

 

[Pete_W]

The G100(D) is comparatively small (taller, thanks to the viewfinder hump, but narrower than the GX7), and Sean has said that it's sold very well, despite not having IBIS. I don't know what to make of it all: Sean seems to say some contradictory things...

I think the distinction is that G100 is not a fully featured camera like the GX9 and GM5 were. It has less features and some limitations. My understanding of what Sean was saying is that not enough people bought the fully featured small cameras because of the price.

 

[Markuswelder]

As one of the comments when I looked yesterday observed, what many people are waiting for is a FF ILC designed primarily for photographers which is more compact than anything else available now. The S9 is the latest in line which is not that camera.

I think it will be extremely unlikely personally. Two reasons. First, they're Panasonic, it's an interwebz sport to slam anything different that they make, until a more established camera manufacturer makes something similar. Then it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and the experts start proclaiming they don't understand why no one has tried it before lol lol. Second, they've already tried it in m4/3, & got caned unmercifully for it. In the form of the GX8. Forum experts had been howling forever for a smallish, feature packed body. Panasonic obliged, & all of a sudden all the interwebz experts slammed the $h!t out of it, making every excuse under the sun as to why they couldn't purchase one.
Panasonic makes what sells, they'll fire the odd shot now and then to test the market, if it doesn't work, then its shelved.

 

[Pete_W]

First, they're Panasonic, it's an interwebz sport to slam anything different that they make, until a more established camera manufacturer makes something similar.

Exactly that!

And especially from Chris at Petapixel who rarely has anything positive to say about Panasonic cameras or lenses. If he does have a compliment it's usually followed by a back-handed criticism. Despite the fact that Jordan does 99.9% of his videography with a Panasonic camera, which Chris is then forced to use when Jordan's doing his piece in front of the camera!

 

[Markuswelder]

He'll say whatever the upper management tell him to say !

Sigh. Here we go again. That's about as bad as the DPreview forum posters outright calling him a liar.
I see he posted there a few times, before getting savaged by the interwebz trolls that populate that swamp, so he simply gave up. It's just a lose lose situation to be in.
If something doesn't sell for Panasonic, they shelve it. Yet the G100 has had a minor refresh. Along with the original S5. Which also got a bit of a hammering online. Yet people don't want to see it.

 

[Markuswelder]

Panasonic now seems to have abandoned smaller fully-featured m4/3 cameras like the GM and GX line. Sean from LUMIX Live indicated that the smaller cameras just didn't sell enough.

I'm not sure if they've totally abandoned them, possibly more just put them on ice perhaps until their research says they might be profitable again. Or assessing exactly what price to feature ratio might work. For both parties. Only guessing here though. It makes less than zero sense to abandon a profitable sector or market, and even less again to continue producing something that's costing them money.
It just reinforces the fact that what the interwebz camera experts proclaim is what is needed in the market, isn't.