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Forgive me, for I have Been Foolish

I suspect we're much closer on all of this than the above ping-pong exchange suggests. I do agree that developing a "connection" with one's chosen camera is important, and so its UI/ergonomics are essential. I also appreciate nicely-designed and manufactured cameras - it helps with the ownership experience and also gives some added impetus to go out and use the things!

But I guess where we differ is that I think the BF has too many limitations to justify whatever goodness it has in terms of usability/UI; especially given its price. I do think the S9 represents much better value for money given that it's cheaper and has features/capabilities important to me - like IBIS, flippy screen, wireless, and focus bracketing/stacking. I also quite like the Panasonic UI/menus. They work for me and I don't feel I need some new UI paradigm. Much more importantly, given that such a camera would always be a second camera to something like the S1Rii, it is a positive benefit that the UI would be consistent across them.

But in the end, I'm not going to be buying either a BF or an S9 because they both lack one of my essential red-line features - an EVF.

Yeah, all of that makes sense, and if it'd been stated in those terms I probably wouldn't have argued so hard. ^^;;

What set me off was when you started listing features and implying that meant the S9 was prima facie superior to the bf, and then followed up with "the S9 is demonstrably a more capable camera". I've been literally fighting for decades against claims that features are the only thing that matters, and anything beyond features and specs is meaningless at best, artsy-fartsy smushie weenie stuff at worst. So I can't let claims like that stand. :)
 
I do think the S9 represents much better value for money given that it's cheaper and has features/capabilities important to me - like IBIS, flippy screen, wireless, and focus bracketing/stacking. I also quite like the Panasonic UI/menus. They work for me and I don't feel I need some new UI paradigm. Much more importantly, given that such a camera would always be a second camera to something like the S1Rii, it is a positive benefit that the UI would be consistent across them.
This is why I have the S9. I wanted an every-day camera and it is like mini version of my S5ii including use of the same batteries. If I need an EVF and/or larger lenses then take the S5ii.

What set me off was when you started listing features and implying that meant the S9 was prima facie superior to the bf, and then followed up with "the S9 is demonstrably a more capable camera". I've been literally fighting for decades against claims that features are the only thing that matters, and anything beyond features and specs is meaningless at best, artsy-fartsy smushie weenie stuff at worst. So I can't let claims like that stand. :)
I totally get that. When I was shooting m4/3 and regularly visiting the DPReview forum, bragging from forum members about camera specifications was common place. I got tired of the posts from Olympus users who insisted that if a camera couldn't shoot some blistering number of frames per second in burst mode and clear the buffer in a couple of seconds then it was useless. Despite the fact that not everyone actually needs that kind of speed.
 
I think it all comes down to individual taste and personal preferences. Lumix S9 and Sigma BF remind me of Android Smartphone vs. Apple iphone.

The Apple iphone (and Apple laptops) have many, many restrictions, so that I refuse to use one. But still, there is a huge Apple fan base and they will buy all iphones, no matter how they limit the way you can use it.

The Sigma BF is going new ways. More like Apple products, not the way how traditional cameras used to be over decades. If the BF price drops to significant lower levels, I am sure that even more people would buy a Sigma BF with only one lens.

But I think the price level is not the biggest problem of the BF.

The biggest problem of the Sigma BF is the lack of a tiny 28mm and/or 40mm pancake lens.
 
I'd be amazed if the BF price dropped given the limited manufacture capability, and Sigma have pretty much maintained the Fp/FpL price from launch, but they will and have shown up on the used market.
 
I think it all comes down to individual taste and personal preferences. Lumix S9 and Sigma BF remind me of Android Smartphone vs. Apple iphone.

The Apple iphone (and Apple laptops) have many, many restrictions, so that I refuse to use one. But still, there is a huge Apple fan base and they will buy all iphones, no matter how they limit the way you can use it.

The Sigma BF is going new ways. More like Apple products, not the way how traditional cameras used to be over decades. If the BF price drops to significant lower levels, I am sure that even more people would buy a Sigma BF with only one lens.

But I think the price level is not the biggest problem of the BF.

The biggest problem of the Sigma BF is the lack of a tiny 28mm and/or 40mm pancake lens.
Seems that TTArtisan will be bringing their 40mm f2 AF to L-mount soon!
 
Seems that TTArtisan will be bringing their 40mm f2 AF to L-mount soon!
Now we are only waiting for a 28mm ... At least some. For me my sigma 16-28mm f2.8 is good enough
 
Seems that TTArtisan will be bringing their 40mm f2 AF to L-mount soon!

Unfortunately the Artisan 40mm is not on the Sigma level.
 
Unfortunately the Artisan 40mm is not on the Sigma level.
Yes, having watched Richard's review, I don't think there would be a compelling reason to switch from my Sigma 45mm.
 
I'm actually surprised to see all these grips appearing given the number of BF's around and mostly they just ruin the whole concept of the design. Maybe one built within a leather case of some sort would appeal, I used a Lim's one on my Leica CL with bigger lenses and it was very good. I think those purchasing the grips are more likely to be wanting a better strap solution than anything else.
 
I’ve always used a wrist strip with my FpL . While waiting for my BF I ordered this grip from Helium. It’s not inexpensive but I think it compliments the camera quite well. Those who have it are giving it a good review. Hopefully this grip and my Peake wrist strap will make the BF as comfortable to use as my FPL .
 

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I’ve always used a wrist strip with my FpL . While waiting for my BF I ordered this grip from Helium. It’s not inexpensive but I think it compliments the camera quite well. Those who have it are giving it a good review. Hopefully this grip and my Peake wrist strap will make the BF as comfortable to use as my FPL .
Yes, there's a reason for that to be the expensive option, it compliments the design of the BF rather than detracts from it. Wrist straps seem to be the way to go but an option for a neck/shoulder strap that seems to suit the BF, certainly with less weighty lenses, (and no clunky fixings like PD straps) is the Artisan&Artist Flynn strap, you can thread both ends of the strap through the one point, I used it on my FpL, small enough to double as a wrist strap but enough for shoulder strap. When I'm walking with a camera I don't seem to settle with one way or another and sometimes bulkier straps are just an added nuisance.
 
I think the BF is a very interesting option as a lifestyle camera. Not only for taking great photos, but also for carrying it and being seen.

I liked this comparison by Josh Cameron, where he says that the BF is like a luxury watch:

 
I think the BF is a very interesting option as a lifestyle camera. Not only for taking great photos, but also for carrying it and being seen.

I liked this comparison by Josh Cameron, where he says that the BF is like a luxury watch:


Yes I watched Josh's vid...made me laugh his analogy about the BF being the gorgeous looking cousin who's just not very bright (something like that anyway). :)

I think the BF is a camera you want rather than need, for me it's neither of those for the S9. I will have to own up at some point to using the BF for the last couple of weeks - I'm smitten.
 
Yes I watched Josh's vid...made me laugh his analogy about the BF being the gorgeous looking cousin who's just not very bright (something like that anyway). :)

I think the BF is a camera you want rather than need, for me it's neither of those for the S9. I will have to own up at some point to using the BF for the last couple of weeks - I'm smitten.
You are forgiven - so long as you tell us all about it!
 
I think the BF is a very interesting option as a lifestyle camera. Not only for taking great photos, but also for carrying it and being seen.

I liked this comparison by Josh Cameron, where he says that the BF is like a luxury watch:


I watched this, plus the one he linked to where he waxes lyrical about the S9. Neither video convinced me that I need or want either of these cameras. It seems he likes the S9 because:

- He likes the in-camera processing (LUTs etc). I hate in-camera processing.

- He takes a lot of shots on outings and wants to push them to social media quickly via his phone, perhaps with a little editing. I try to keep the shot count down and I’m in no hurry to publish anywhere. I also hate trying to do any image manipulation on a phone.

- He can cope without an EVF. I can’t.

- He does a lot of vidoe. I struggle to spell it.

- He finds taking an S5-sized camera with him is sometimes an encumbrance. I can see where he’s going here, but for times when a “proper” camera is inappropriate, the slightly smaller size of the S9 really won’t make a difference, esp if it’s got the 28-200 mounted on it (which he thinks is a good combo). For me, if I were desperate for a truly compact half decent camera for social use (something better than an iPhone), then I’d get an LX100, or maybe one of the 1” cameras like the RX100. Or maybe the GR3. All are way smaller then an S9 with any lens mounted.

As to the BF, he says that it’s flawed (missing near-essential features), but that its positioning as the Rolex of the camera world makes up for it. I’m sure it’s a delightful camera to hold etc, but at the end of the day, those missing features are important for me (IBIS, EVF, swivel screen). His analogy of the BF being like a friend whilst the S5/S1 etc are like work colleagues doesn’t work for me since I view all my camera gear as tools, not as living things that I form relationships with!

But of course, all this is just my opinion and it’s clear that not everyone has the same opinions! So, vive le sport!
 
I watched this, plus the one he linked to where he waxes lyrical about the S9. Neither video convinced me that I need or want either of these cameras. It seems he likes the S9 because:

- He likes the in-camera processing (LUTs etc). I hate in-camera processing.

- He takes a lot of shots on outings and wants to push them to social media quickly via his phone, perhaps with a little editing. I try to keep the shot count down and I’m in no hurry to publish anywhere. I also hate trying to do any image manipulation on a phone.

- He can cope without an EVF. I can’t.

- He does a lot of vidoe. I struggle to spell it.

- He finds taking an S5-sized camera with him is sometimes an encumbrance. I can see where he’s going here, but for times when a “proper” camera is inappropriate, the slightly smaller size of the S9 really won’t make a difference, esp if it’s got the 28-200 mounted on it (which he thinks is a good combo). For me, if I were desperate for a truly compact half decent camera for social use (something better than an iPhone), then I’d get an LX100, or maybe one of the 1” cameras like the RX100. Or maybe the GR3. All are way smaller then an S9 with any lens mounted.

As to the BF, he says that it’s flawed (missing near-essential features), but that its positioning as the Rolex of the camera world makes up for it. I’m sure it’s a delightful camera to hold etc, but at the end of the day, those missing features are important for me (IBIS, EVF, swivel screen). His analogy of the BF being like a friend whilst the S5/S1 etc are like work colleagues doesn’t work for me since I view all my camera gear as tools, not as living things that I form relationships with!

But of course, all this is just my opinion and it’s clear that not everyone has the same opinions! So, vive le sport!

I'll say right off the bat, not sure I would have bought a BF if I hadn't just happened upon a used one, with a spare battery, that I felt I could try for a while with little financial impact, and I do like a "play" with something new now and then, brightens my often boring life!!!

To answer your points.

No, I'm no fan on in-camera processing, I have no clue about LUT's etc, probably because I don't do (understand) video. But the fact that you can plug the BF into your phone and download and edit the photo's is quicker than hoping for wifi to stay connected through an app. I love the whole usb-c cable thing for charging and downloading the photo's, I copy them over onto an external hard drive, so speedy, much less bother than cards, and I like the way the BF handles the file storage, saved by date into the internal memory.

I prefer an EVF of course, but in use I haven't had an issue with the BF, even in bright daylight it's been fine, mostly I leave the screen set to brightness level 3 - up to 5 when necessary, and there is an outdoor brightness assist beyond that. I've not missed IBIS yet, but I use other camera's with no IBIS it's not an absolute need for my use.

There is no size benefit in the BF, it's still a largish camera, and there's still have the lens size issue, L mount not being blessed with many small (good) options, however, the 45 and 90 contemporary Sigma's are great on the BF, and I'm sure adding the 24mm 3.5 would make a lovely kit. I'm more likely to chuck the aps-c 18TL on the F for a light small option and take the hit on pixels, that is when I'm not using manual lenses, I have good options for small and light there. I find it comfortable in my hands, I can see why some would want a grip but I haven't felt the need yet and I've been out with it for hours on end. Battery life is perfectly acceptable, I've only swapped to the second battery once, and I just charge them in camera.


So I knew what was missing from the camera, but what I didn't know was how much I would like the menu and controls, so intuitive and quick, every camera should have buttons and dials that feel like the BF, how well the autofocus worked, and it's pretty good, how well it handles manual lenses, tap the screen on where you want focus magnification, add lens details to the exif, there seems more detail in the images than other 24 megapixel cameras I have used, (I can't explain that), so for me it's an enjoyable tool. I'll share a few happy early days snaps.

Produce 50mm 1.4 Manual.jpg
  • Sigma - Sigma BF
  • 50mm F1.4
  • 50.0 mm
  • ƒ/1
  • 1/800 sec
  • Pattern
  • Manual exposure
  • ISO 100


Tair 11A Manual BF.jpg
  • Sigma - Sigma BF
  • ƒ/4
  • 1/640 sec
  • Pattern
  • Manual exposure
  • ISO 400


Horns.. Sigma 90.jpg
  • Sigma - Sigma BF
  • 90mm F2.8 DG DN | Contemporary 021
  • 90.0 mm
  • ƒ/2.8
  • 1/640 sec
  • Pattern
  • Manual exposure
  • ISO 100
Freya through the crowds.jpg
  • Sigma - Sigma BF
  • 90mm F2.8 DG DN | Contemporary 021
  • 90.0 mm
  • ƒ/2.8
  • 1/250 sec
  • Pattern
  • Manual exposure
  • ISO 200
 
Another couple wouldn't fit above.. I've taken around 1,000 images in a couple of weeks, mostly happy.Happy People.jpg
  • Sigma - Sigma BF
  • 90mm F2.8 DG DN | Contemporary 021
  • 90.0 mm
  • ƒ/3.2
  • 1/800 sec
  • Pattern
  • Manual exposure
  • ISO 200


Loud Crowd.jpg
  • Sigma - Sigma BF
  • 90mm F2.8 DG DN | Contemporary 021
  • 90.0 mm
  • ƒ/6.3
  • 1/250 sec
  • Pattern
  • Manual exposure
  • ISO 2500
Pretty Colours.jpg
  • Sigma - Sigma BF
  • 90mm F2.8 DG DN | Contemporary 021
  • 90.0 mm
  • ƒ/2.8
  • 1/800 sec
  • Pattern
  • Manual exposure
  • ISO 200


Gnarly Traps.jpg
  • Sigma - Sigma BF
  • 65mm F2 DG DN | Contemporary 020
  • 65.0 mm
  • ƒ/2.5
  • 1/100 sec
  • Pattern
  • Manual exposure
  • ISO 200
 
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