The Case for APS-C (again)

[pdk42]

To me it would make more sense for them (Panasonic) to start transitioning those “entry level” and compact options into the L mount and an APSC sensor would be a better fit.

Well, I guess we're both guessing ( ), but I'll eat my hat if Panasonic enter the APS-C market !

 

[Lsake]

In fact Panasonic have launched a number of new MFT models in the past decade:

- GH7 (June 24)
- G9ii (Sept 23)
- GH6 (Feb 22)
- GH5ii (June 21)
- G100 (June 20)

And there have been lenses too:

- 25-50 f1.7 (July 21)
- 9mm f1.7 (May 22)
- Mark ii versions of the 12-35, 35-100, and the 100-400 (various dates in 22 and 23)

Given how mature the m43 lens range is, this isn't a bad record.

in fairness yes, they have kept updating the GH camera. I was thinking more in terms of a “new” model Like a new GX or GM line. I know a lot of people have talked about wanting that. It seems they just discontinued those lines. Possibly the S9 was meant to be the spiritual successor to the GX9…not sure if that’s how it’s played out. This is kind of where the whole APSC question comes into play for me. To the people who were a bit disappointed that the S9 wasn’t a GX10, would they have been happier if it was an SX9? - a hypothetical APSC S9 with an EVF and mechanical shutter, bundled with a Lumix version of the Leica 18mm f2.8 pancake lens. Could that have converted some number of MFT customers over to L mount?

 

[Markuswelder]

I agree with most of that, but I’m not sure m43 is as dead as you paint it

I'm not saying it's dead. But I don't think it's where most of the new developments are going to be coming from from here on in.

 

[xaviergut]

a hypothetical APSC S9 with an EVF and mechanical shutter, bundled with a Lumix version of the Leica 18mm f2.8 pancake lens. Could that have converted some number of MFT customers over to L mount?

I guess it depends on the price... And I am afraid that combo would cost between 1500 and 2000€.

Anyway, that combo already exists: Sony A6700 + Viltrox 28mm f/4.5. Another option is the TTArtisan 27mm f/2.8 Auto Focus.

I just can imaging Sigma or DJI going aps-c in the L-mount.

What about a S9 with EVF and mechanical shutter with a Lumix 28mm f/2.8 pancake lens?

 

[Markuswelder]

Once again, it won't happen. The only way Panasonic would look at APSC, is if there were major video advantages. I think they had a super 35 sensor under development at one point, that's since gone quiet and disappeared. Photography, not going to happen. You can see in m4/3 that all the real development has gone into video, stills has just benefited a little from that. They want to push stills photographers towards 36x24. Even budget orientated. 18-40mm? 26mm pancake? 20-60mm? 14-28mm? All as cheap or cheaper than their m4/3 equivalents. That's why I jumped, I could see where it's all headed.

 

[Markuswelder]

You can still buy Olympus MFT cameras, for legal reasons they’re not Olympus branded anymore.

No you can't. As much as all the misery guts Olympus fanbois wished Panasonic to fail, it was the other way around. Panasonic has video to lean on. Olympus had "tradition" and a raging fanboi base. Which I dare say has a bit to answer for, in the lack of take-up in general with m4/3.

 

[Pete_W]

Once again, it won't happen. The only way Panasonic would look at APSC, is if there were major video advantages.

I hadn't thought about this before, but maybe a GH8 with an APS-C sensor and L-mount to take advantage of the existing lens range could be quite compelling. It would provide an uplift in resolution and DR over the m4/3 GH7, not be any larger and it's already premium priced which is what Panasonic would want.

Like you, I can't see Pansonic releasing an entry-level APSC model. Cheap cameras don't make much money per unit so they'd have to sell boatloads of them to make any money overall and that's squarely in Canon's territory. I don't think they'd win that war. Panasonic is better off playing to its strenghts.

 

[Markuswelder]

I hadn't thought about this before, but maybe a GH8 with an APS-C sensor and L-mount to take advantage of the existing lens range could be quite compelling. It would provide an uplift in resolution and DR over the m4/3 GH7, not be any larger and it's already premium priced which is what Panasonic would want.

Like you, I can't see Pansonic releasing an entry-level APSC model. Cheap cameras don't make much money per unit so they'd have to sell boatloads of them to make any money overall and that's squarely in Canon's territory. I don't think they'd win that war. Panasonic is better off playing to its strenghts.

The trouble with that (I've been down that road before so speak from experience), is that the focal lengths are all wrong. Great if you're a sports/wildlife shooter -everything gets "longer" but $hit if you want to shoot on the wider side of standard to wide. And like I wrote, I could only ever see it happen for video advantages. Which, incidentally, favors wide over telephoto.
And if they were to develop a range of specific lenses to suit, then it's just a massive overlap with their existing m4/3 range. For what?

 

[Quentinquirelino]

...

I just can imaging Sigma or DJI going aps-c in the L-mount.

...

Probably not even that. Until early last year, sigma released APS-C lenses for the L-Mount, but they have stopped doing so with the 12 mm f1.4 and it seems like they also will not release the 15 mm f1.4 for L-Mount. Maybe they gave up on APS-C lenses for L-Mount and that also indicates they are not planning an APS-C camera in the foreseeable future.

Chinesen companies, like TTartisans or 7Artisans did only release Full frame lenses for L-Mount. If we assume, that Chinese companies in the same branches knows about what doing the others, then we could assume they aren't planning APS-C cameras for L-Mount neither.

 

[xaviergut]

Probably not even that. Until early last year, sigma released APS-C lenses for the L-Mount, but they have stopped doing so with the 12 mm f1.4 and it seems like they also will not release the 15 mm f1.4 for L-Mount. Maybe they gave up on APS-C lenses for L-Mount and that also indicates they are not planning an APS-C camera in the foreseeable future.

Chinesen companies, like TTartisans or 7Artisans did only release Full frame lenses for L-Mount. If we assume, that Chinese companies in the same branches knows about what doing the others, then we could assume they aren't planning APS-C cameras for L-Mount neither.

Yes, I mentioned DJI because they have the line Zenmuse line of professional drones with an APSC sensor that delivers 8k recording. They seem to be the only company that innovates a bit in this world of image technonogy.

 

[xaviergut]

Yes, I mentioned DJI because they have the line Zenmuse line of professional drones with an APSC sensor that delivers 8k recording. They seem to be the only company that innovates a bit in this world of image technonogy.

I meant 6k

 

[Jonathan-Mac]

While I'm not against APS-C at all I'm sceptical over the possibility of producing a camera that's cheaper than FF in L-mount. The S5D can be bought for £699 or €799 and it's a lot of camera for the money even if it doesn't have phase detect AF. Even an APS-C S9 with the cost reductions of no viewfinder or mechanical shutter but having PDAF, I'm not sure if it would be significantly cheaper than the existing S9, and if it's not cheaper then there isn't much point.

 

[pdk42]

While I'm not against APS-C at all I'm sceptical over the possibility of producing a camera that's cheaper than FF in L-mount. The S5D can be bought for £699 or €799 and it's a lot of camera for the money even if it doesn't have phase detect AF. Even an APS-C S9 with the cost reductions of no viewfinder or mechanical shutter but having PDAF, I'm not sure if it would be significantly cheaper than the existing S9, and if it's not cheaper then there isn't much point.

I agree. I just can't see Panasonic getting into APSC. Makes zero sense.

 

[jtv_backstudio]

In fact Panasonic have launched a number of new MFT models in the past decade:

- GH7 (June 24)
- G9ii (Sept 23)
- GH6 (Feb 22)
- GH5ii (June 21)
- G100 (June 20)

And there have been lenses too:

- 25-50 f1.7 (July 21)
- 9mm f1.7 (May 22)
- Mark ii versions of the 12-35, 35-100, and the 100-400 (various dates in 22 and 23)

Given how mature the m43 lens range is, this isn't a bad record.

This cameras you mentioned are fairly large bodies. For the traveler, street shooter and even hiker/landscape photographer, they don't necessarily offer many advantages. For wildlife and sports they are a good choice (some not all of them).

What I thought would be a great focus for m43 would be the small zoom compact shooter LX100II type of camera. Great for street shooting and travel. A new version with improved resolution, low light performance, computational photography for scenes, landscapes and luts, even better lens with F1.4-F2.2 brightness and zoom range near 24-60sih and universal sensor which any photo format would be near 27mp resolution could be a killer camera, especially if it did video well for the blogger or "influencer." The 1" sensor cameras have taken over this space, but having used one for an evening, it just fell short.

 

[Travis Butler]

This cameras you mentioned are fairly large bodies. For the traveler, street shooter and even hiker/landscape photographer, they don't necessarily offer many advantages. For wildlife and sports they are a good choice (some not all of them).

What I thought would be a great focus for m43 would be the small zoom compact shooter LX100II type of camera. Great for street shooting and travel. A new version with improved resolution, low light performance, computational photography for scenes, landscapes and luts, even better lens with F1.4-F2.2 brightness and zoom range near 24-60sih and universal sensor which any photo format would be near 27mp resolution could be a killer camera, especially if it did video well for the blogger or "influencer." The 1" sensor cameras have taken over this space, but having used one for an evening, it just fell short.

You’re describing a camera very much to my taste, but that has done poorly in the market over the last couple of decades.

I loved the GM series… and they crashed and burned because people complained about paying premium prices for a small camera. Doesn’t matter that they were premium products with a premium build, apparently most people associate ‘small’ with ‘cheap’ and won’t buy. The Pen-F had similarly lackluster sales, from what I’ve heard. The G100, which was built cheap but priced cheap, has done well - but it’s not a product I want.

 

[jtv_backstudio]

You’re describing a camera very much to my taste, but that has done poorly in the market over the last couple of decades.

I loved the GM series… and they crashed and burned because people complained about paying premium prices for a small camera. Doesn’t matter that they were premium products with a premium build, apparently most people associate ‘small’ with ‘cheap’ and won’t buy. The Pen-F had similarly lackluster sales, from what I’ve heard. The G100, which was built cheap but priced cheap, has done well - but it’s not a product I want.

Nor do I. What I thought could be stellar, was if the Leica X Vario 2 could have been produced with 24mp aps-c sensor and one stop better lens with shorter throw. 28-60 F2.8-F4 or 5.4...without killing the form factor. I think it could have been done, with much time and money invested in lens research/manufacture I'm sure. That original X-Vario was great, it's only limitations besides being a slow lens: contrast autofocus only (not a deal breaker) and 16mp sensor (a very good one, but just not quite enough resolution for any cropping and large prints). I'm sure Leica did the math, figured sales would be very low (as you stated) for an update to the X Vario, and the camera would cannibalize sales from the Q. Leica took the Sigma route (DP Quattro) by releasing a camera for every focal length rather than a compact travel zoom approach. The Q is beautiful, but just a little too inflexible and rich for my blood. What is interesting, however, is that compact cameras are seeing an increase in sales, 2025 had sales in this segment higher than 2021. When travel ramped up after Covid, everyone began clamoring to get on the 1" sensor camera market for $1400 bucks (Sony RX100?). I think compacts accounted for 25% of sales or so in the digital camera market. The Lumix release of a 1" compact is telling, as they don't seem like the type of company to jump into a shrinking market to make a statement AND because their m43 products, in theory, could be tweaked to deliver a great compact camera instead. Lumix continues m43 for the videographer and wildlife shooter in my opinion.

 

[Jayneboo]

Nor do I. What I thought could be stellar, was if the Leica X Vario 2 could have been produced with 24mp aps-c sensor and one stop better lens with shorter throw. 28-60 F2.8-F4 or 5.4...without killing the form factor. I think it could have been done, with much time and money invested in lens research/manufacture I'm sure. That original X-Vario was great, it's only limitations besides being a slow lens: contrast autofocus only (not a deal breaker) and 16mp sensor (a very good one, but just not quite enough resolution for any cropping and large prints). I'm sure Leica did the math, figured sales would be very low (as you stated) for an update to the X Vario, and the camera would cannibalize sales from the Q. Leica took the Sigma route (DP Quattro) by releasing a camera for every focal length rather than a compact travel zoom approach. The Q is beautiful, but just a little too inflexible and rich for my blood. What is interesting, however, is that compact cameras are seeing an increase in sales, 2025 had sales in this segment higher than 2021. When travel ramped up after Covid, everyone began clamoring to get on the 1" sensor camera market for $1400 bucks (Sony RX100?). I think compacts accounted for 25% of sales or so in the digital camera market. The Lumix release of a 1" compact is telling, as they don't seem like the type of company to jump into a shrinking market to make a statement AND because their m43 products, in theory, could be tweaked to deliver a great compact camera instead. Lumix continues m43 for the videographer and wildlife shooter in my opinion.

I used an X-Vario for some time and then went to the Leica CL at launch. Did you try one. It was a step forward from the x-vario, even with the 18-56 kit lens, which always far exceeded expectations, lovely lens. 24 megapixel asp-c camera, great shame to me that Leica didn't step up with a CL2.

 

[xaviergut]

I still have my Ricoh GR3, an APS-C sensor with 24MP, and it's the best camera in terms of size and image quality for still photography. In my opinion, there's no other camera of that size with better image quality.

These days I'm traveling through southern Germany, and I have the Ricoh GR3 in one coat pocket and the DJI Osmo Pocket 3 in the other, which I borrowed from a friend. I'm really impressed with the video this camera produces. The Ricoh's video is practically unusable. I was used to the image quality of the DJI Osmo Action 4, but the Pocket 3 is amazing, way better.

That said, the Lumix LX100iii already exists, and it's called the Leica D-LUX 8, which costs €1,600 in Europe. But if Lumix were to actually release the LX100iii, they should include PDAF. Especially if they want to offer good autofocus for video. And that autofocus system is already in the G9ii and the GH7, if I'm not mistaken. The image quality of this two cameras is said to be "apsc killer".

Maybe the LX100iii is the camera to be announced in April...

 

[jtv_backstudio]

I used an X-Vario for some time and then went to the Leica CL at launch. Did you try one. It was a step forward from the x-vario, even with the 18-56 kit lens, which always far exceeded expectations, lovely lens. 24 megapixel asp-c camera, great shame to me that Leica didn't step up with a CL2.

I have tried the X Vario and was actually thinking of the CL as an option for travel, but it wasn’t a very compelling choice for me when using m43. After they discontinued it, I gave up on the idea unless I find an inexpensive one for sale.