Rumors New Lumix camera(s) on May 13th?

[dirk]

That is actually the whole point of going fullframe.

I am astonished that this did not make big waves among Nikon users.

I do not need 14fps. But I would love to have only 24 MP....

 

[Markuswelder]

That is actually the whole point of going fullframe.

I am astonished that this did not make big waves among Nikon users.

I do not need 14fps. But I would love to have only 24 MP....

This is nothing new. They've all been trading DR for readout speed. I think the Sony A1 is about the only one that doesn't, well, noticeably anyway.

 

[Quentinquirelino]

A

But what big advantage would a stacked sensor has? Is it speed? If yes how fast? Would that hint to a very first sport camera for L-Mount?

....

You always also have to look to the video side. A faster sensor is necessary to get faster frame rates, like full frame 4k 60fps or more. The S5II only can do it in crop mode. For photographers who don't do action, I wouldn't expect any advantage of any new camera since the original Lumix S series.

 

[Markuswelder]

A


You always also have to look to the video side. A faster sensor is necessary to get faster frame rates, like full frame 4k 60fps or more. The S5II only can do it in crop mode. For photographers who don't do action, I wouldn't expect any advantage of any new camera since the original Lumix S series.

You can still do action shooting with the slower sensors, the stacked sensors seem to be for those that insist on a bazillion FPS in electronic shutter mode. A slower sensor does just fine with mechanical shutter shooting action. I think it's just getting to the point of pen!$ measuring and oneupmanship, as to how many FPS you actually need. Bigger is better right? A bit like the Megapickle race

 

[Pete_W]

I am astonished that this did not make big waves among Nikon users.

Yes, and reviewers like PetaPixel and DPR seemed to defend this compromise by Nikon. If Panasonic had done this they'd have been raked over the coals.

 

[Quentinquirelino]

You can still do action shooting with the slower sensors, the stacked sensors seem to be for those that insist on a bazillion FPS in electronic shutter mode. A slower sensor does just fine with mechanical shutter shooting action. I think it's just getting to the point of pen!$ measuring and oneupmanship, as to how many FPS you actually need. Bigger is better right? A bit like the Megapickle race

It probably depends on the action. I still shoot with the OG S5 and would agree, it's fast enough for kids, or most human related stuff in general, in action or moderate fast animals. But it's to slow faster animals, like fast running towards you or many kinds of birds in flight. It's also not only about the actual frames per second, it's also the information update of on sensor auto focus is to slow to keep up with the subject. Therefore also a mechanical shutter isn't a solution, even if the lower frame rates would be enough.

 

[Markuswelder]

It probably depends on the action. I still shoot with the OG S5 and would agree, it's fast enough for kids, or most human related stuff in general, in action or moderate fast animals. But it's to slow faster animals, like fast running towards you or many kinds of birds in flight. It's also not only about the actual frames per second, it's also the information update of on sensor auto focus is to slow to keep up with the subject. Therefore also a mechanical shutter isn't a solution, even if the lower frame rates would be enough.

I'm not so sure. Camera's like the Canon 1DXII & III, and the Nikon D6 had exceptional AF & 14-16 FPS without any fancy stacked sensors. But we're talking another class of camera, well above camera's like the S1RII & S5II. Yeah, I know we're only talking rumours at this point, but I don't thing we're going to see a Sony A1/Nikon Z9 level camera at this point. And then, the Z6 sensor wouldn't make any sense anyway. Just how I see it.

 

[Markuswelder]

I'm pretty sure I can see where they're going with this. They're trading off image quality for spec sheet numbers. It's cheaper just to throw some existing sensor in there, that boasts fast readout speed, than making a high quality mechanical shutter that does 12-14 FPS reliably.
I'm not interested in going down that road, in the slightest. I'd rather excellent image quality over fancy numbers on a spec sheet

 

[Quentinquirelino]

I'm not so sure. Camera's like the Canon 1DXII & III, and the Nikon D6 had exceptional AF & 14-16 FPS without any fancy stacked sensors. But we're talking another class of camera, well above camera's like the S1RII & S5II. Yeah, I know we're only talking rumours at this point, but I don't thing we're going to see a Sony A1/Nikon Z9 level camera at this point. And then, the Z6 sensor wouldn't make any sense anyway. Just how I see it.

DSLRs have dedicated PDAF sensors which are read separately from the main image sensor and therefore are independent from the sensor read out speed. That's why they can track faster subjects.

That's different with mirrorless cameras and on sensor AF implementation. The first mirrorless cameras, fast enough for fast sports etc., was the Sony A9, which was the first with stacked Sensor.

I'm also don't expect such a camera from Panasonic on may 13th. But we will hopefully getting closer. However, a Nikon Z8 isn't far from the S1RII. Currently the Z8 is even cheaper to get in Europe.

 

[GeorgeHudetz]

I look at it this way: What the manufacturers are doing is giving us more options by manipulating how the sensors perform at various ISOs and at various readout speeds. All the while being balanced by price points.

Sensors reached peak DR a while ago. But now, instead of choosing from a bunch of bodies that all have peak DR at base ISO, we have choices where we give up some peak DR but gain additional DR in the ISO 400+ range. It's this last point that gets interesting to me. For example, the a7RV has about a 2/3 stop advantage at base ISO over the S1RII. Interestingly, the S1RII has about a 1/2 stop advantage at ISO 3200. Hmmm.

However, if you look at the PDR Shadow Improvement chart, it gets even more interesting. The S1RII picks up another 1.25 stops of PDR at ISO 3200, so a net difference of 1.75 stops of PDR over the Sony at that ISO (at least, in the shadows). That's a significant difference when your "normal" PDR is hovering in the 7.5 ish range, as it does at ISO 3200.

So you just have to look at the data (and the raw files!) and decide what's right for you. The advantage of some of these newer sensors (beyond speed) is that for things like wildlife - where you are often photographing in reducing lighting situations and therefore at elevated ISOs - and for video, where you are sometimes forced into elevated ISOs anyway - the increase in PDR (or at least: shadow recovery) at elevated ISOs while giving up a comparatively small amount of PDR at base ISO can make a lot of sense.

Of course, if your main objective is landscape, then you will be primarily concerned with base ISO. And there is no question that the Sony 60 MP sensor is the best FF sensor on the market right now for landscape - due to it's PDR and it's resolution.

As for a PDR of 11.08 vs. 11.63 (S1RII vs a7RV, respectively) I was somewhat concerned about that, as I am primarily a landscape shooter. So, I download a ton of raws from the DPR test tool, and did things like boost them 6 stops from a near-black exposure to see if I could find an obvious difference. While I could see a difference, I found it to be quite small (i.e., zoom in 300%, etc). I'm not saying this is a perfect test - and I'm sure that something like raw digger would prove that there is a little more information in the deep shadows of the Sony files - but I came to the conclusion that 11.08 vs 11.63 PDR just isn't important to me, given that even in the most demanding high DR scene I rarely have to boost shadows more than 3 stops anyway (at least, at base ISO). So I decided to look at other factors in making my decision.

 

[xaviergut]

Regarding the sensor of the Z6iii, the problem besides DR, noise and ISO performance, was that in video there was some kind of flickering/pulsing/flashing that was really disturbing.

Robert May made two interesting and informative videos about it 9 months ago. I don't know if Nikon fixed the problem, but he compared the performance of the Z6iii with the S5iix and the Lumix was waaaaaaaay better:



He was not the only one reporting this issue. Could be a batch of the Z6iii production...

 

[Markuswelder]

DSLRs have dedicated PDAF sensors which are read separately from the main image sensor and therefore are independent from the sensor read out speed. That's why they can track faster subjects.

That's different with mirrorless cameras and on sensor AF implementation. The first mirrorless cameras, fast enough for fast sports etc., was the Sony A9, which was the first with stacked Sensor.

I'm also don't expect such a camera from Panasonic on may 13th. But we will hopefully getting closer. However, a Nikon Z8 isn't far from the S1RII. Currently the Z8 is even cheaper to get in Europe.

That's not the case. Taken from DPreviews 1DX III review

"You'll get the absolute best autofocus performance in live view, but camera's form factor and weight might make this impractical"

It's simply a case of cost cutting and spec sheet numbers, which I'm not interested in

 

[Pete_W]

Regarding the sensor of the Z6iii, the problem besides DR, noise and ISO performance, was that in video there was some kind of flickering/pulsing/flashing that was really disturbing.

Robert May made two interesting and informative videos about it 9 months ago. I don't know if Nikon fixed the problem, but he compared the performance of the Z6iii with the S5iix and the Lumix was waaaaaaaay better:



He was not the only one reporting this issue. Could be a batch of the Z6iii production...

According to a DPR article this problem has supposedly been addressed via a firmware update:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/5077765862/nikon-brings-pro-video-features-to-z6iii-z8-with-latest-firmware-update

I've not seen any comments or testing to confirm that the problem was actually fixed, and the firmware notes say "Reduced noise in dark areas of N-Log videos" so the problem may not have been fully eliminated.

 

[Markuswelder]

I've not seen any comments or testing to confirm that the problem was actually fixed, and the firmware notes say "Reduced noise in dark areas of N-Log videos" so the problem may not have been fully eliminated.

This is the big issue for Panasonic. They seem to be held accountable to a different, higher set of standards than the big 3. Canon had worse DR for untold years, it was just glossed over. Sony's AF was horrible forever, it was excused for various reasons. Nikon's first few iterations of AF were terrible too. Worse than Panasonic in some of the videos I've watched. Excuses were made there. Some of the absolute worst video footage I've ever seen as far as AF hunting goes, was from one of the very recent Fujifilm cameras. Not a word said.
Yet the second Panasonic doesn't out perform all the other brands in every area, it's the end of the world. I just can't see it ending well if the Z6 sensor is used. The big 3 can get away with it, Panasonic will be crucified for it. Just how it is unfortunately