My 70-200 f4 "Pro" has died

[pdk42]

I must say my confidence in Panasonic has taken a bit of a beating with my recent 70-200 experience. I really don't want to change systems (again), but confidence is a fragile thing. I'm now waiting for the next Panasonic lens to fail. The 24-105 has a bad reputation for breakdown of the cement and causing white internal rash in some element groups so it'll be my luck for this to happen next.

 

[GeorgeHudetz]

I agree that it is shocking that you can’t get a “pro” level lens - that is still in production - repaired. It is a waste of the energy and resources that went into making that lens, and an insult to the customer. Having said that, I do wonder how the other manufacturers “rate” in this regard. Hopefully Sigma is better.

 

[CharlesH]

They said it was becoming a trend amongst all manufacturers, but that Panasonic were the worst. Sigma got a good word !

Other aspects, with Panasonic you get a three year extended warranty if you register the lens (at least in the U.S.). Also, how reliable are the lenses - how often do they fail?

I currently have 10 Lumix full frame lenses, three since 2019. Of these, the 70-300 failed and Panasonic said they could not repair it; they gave a pretty good discount on a replacement. I had seven M43 Lumix lenses and none of these failed. I did have a failure on a M43 1.4x extender. Panasonic has discontinued this extender and I had a devil of a time finding a replacement. Overall, with seventeen Lumix lenses I've had one lens failure, and one extender failure.

Over the years I've had Canon lenses and Sony lenses. I've lost track of how many, but no where near as many as Panasonic. I did not have any failures of Canon or Sony lenses.

I'd be interested in others experience with lenses from all manufacturers.

 

[pdk42]

Other aspects, with Panasonic you get a three year extended warranty if you register the lens (at least in the U.S.). Also, how reliable are the lenses - how often do they fail?

I currently have 10 Lumix full frame lenses, three since 2019. Of these, the 70-300 failed and Panasonic said they could not repair it; they gave a pretty good discount on a replacement. I had seven M43 Lumix lenses and none of these failed. I did have a failure on a M43 1.4x extender. Panasonic has discontinued this extender and I had a devil of a time finding a replacement. Overall, with seventeen Lumix lenses I've had one lens failure, and one extender failure.

Over the years I've had Canon lenses and Sony lenses. I've lost track of how many, but no where near as many as Panasonic. I did not have any failures of Canon or Sony lenses.

I'd be interested in others experience with lenses from all manufacturers.

I guess I must have gone through multiple tens of lenses over the years from multiple manufacturers - Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Panasonic, Sigma, Samyang, and other smaller manufacturers (TTArtisan, Voigtlander/Cosina etc). I look after my gear and none of them has failed. In fact, if you look at the 70-200 it looks mint. That's partly what's annoying me, but I accept that sh1t happens. What's really irking me is Panasonic's approach to spares and repairs.

I get that service operations are probably loss-making and that modern manufacturing is not conducive to easy repair, but there is a wider brand-perception issue here.

This is a lens that retails at £1449 in the UK. If I bought a domestic appliance of that sort of value (oven, cooker, washing machine etc), I wouldn't expect to throw it away if a component (say a motor or a fan) failed. That's my point. Why should a £1500 lens be throw away for a minor component failure?

 

[Pete_W]

I'd be interested in others experience with lenses from all manufacturers.

I have never experiences a lens failure. I've owned Panasonic m4/3 and L-mount lenses, Sigma L-mount lenses and Nikon F-mount lenses.

I should add that I have purchased all of my lenses new and from authorised retailers, no lenses purchased offshore. And I've generally picked up my lenses purchases rather than having them shipped to me to avoid additional transport.

 

[PJD]

... This is a lens that retails at £1449 in the UK. If I bought a domestic appliance of that sort of value (oven, cooker, washing machine etc), I wouldn't expect to throw it away if a component (say a motor or a fan) failed. That's my point. Why should a £1500 lens be throw away for a minor component failure?

On this point I agree. If Panasonic doesn't want to offer reasonably-priced actual repair options (where your lens is taken apart & fixed), they might, for example, offer to replace an out-of-warranty, less-than-3-year-old lens for about 40% of its original list price. This would be for replacement of a lens that isn't working properly but with no visible external damage, purchased new from a factory-authorized dealer. The replacement lens would be a new unit of the same model, or if no longer available, a similar-featured new model.

 

[xaviergut]

Just to compare:

In Austria, for Nikon's professional line (S-Line), repairs aren't typically billed by the hour. Instead, they often follow a "tiered pricing" system or flat rates based on the severity of the issue.

Here are the estimated costs you might encounter at an official service center for a pro lens (like a 24-70mm f/2.8 S or a 70-200mm f/2.8 S):

The Three Cost Tiers (Estimates)

* Tier 1: Minor Repair & Adjustment
* Cost: Between €150 and €250.
* Includes: Internal dust cleaning, firmware updates, focus system calibration, and replacement of external rubber grips.

* Tier 2: Impact or Electronic Repair (Major Repair)
* Cost: Between €400 and €650.
* Includes: Replacing the rear mount (if bent), swapping the autofocus motor (STM), or replacing the internal main circuit board (PCB).

* Tier 3: Critical Optical Damage
* Cost: €800 or more.
* Includes: Replacing a cracked front or rear glass element.

Occasionally, if the damage is catastrophic, Nikon will provide a quote that nearly equals the lens's value, in which case a repair is usually not worth it.

 

[Jonathan-Mac]

I was sorry to see on FB that your 70-200 had failed and couldn't be repaired. Not providing spare parts seems the most ridiculous reason there is to not repair an expensive electronic item. It must be a circuitboard or processor failure and it should be possible to repair it by just swapping that out. Not impressive at all.

I was very disappointed when I found out about the blue fogging and cement separation that some Lumix S lenses suffer from and that Panasonic has not admitted to the problem publicly. However, when I found out that all three of my Lumix lenses were affected, including the 16-35mm "Pro", Panasonic replaced them all, even the 16-35mm, which I had bought used and was not under guarantee. It seem crazy to offer that level of good will but then not repair similar lenses simply because you don't want to supply the parts to do so.

Even before hearing this story I had much more confidence in Sigma than I do in Panasonic, just based on my own experience and the huge number of stories online of lenses that became useless well before their time either by breakage, fogging or because they were poor copies. It would take a lot to get me to buy Panasonic over Sigma these days.

Panasonic have a lot of work to do if they want to be respected by their user base and to draw users from other brands to Lumix.

 

[pdk42]

Just as an addendum to this...

I asked the repair company about Sigma's policy and this is what I got:

Since I've no idea which lenses Panasonic can repair and those they can't, my strategy now is to switch to Sigma entirely. I'm going to unload my Panasonic lenses before they fail and replace with Sigma. I think my policy will be:

- 14-28, replace with 16-28 (I've tested these two before and I know the Sigma is very good, if not quite as wide)
- 24-105, this is effectively replaced already by the 20-200, but I might get a Sigma 28-105 f2.8 or 28-70 f2.8 as a standard fast zoom at some point
- 50/1.8, replace with Sigma iSeries 50 f2
- 70-200 f4, replace with the Sigma 70-200 f2.8

 

[pdk42]

I'll also add that despite several mails to Panasonic's complaints dept and to their European Corporate Comms office (to which I have received no reply), and a couple of on-line chats on their support web-site, they have zero interest in responding to my evident disappointment or to making any attempt to repair my confidence in the brand. I've spend multiple thousands of pounds with them and they just don't give a damn.

 

[CharlesH]

I'll admit I'm not nearly as concerned about and sensitive to this situation as you are. But I do want to point out some advantages of Panasonic lenses. First, and I know you are not interested in video, cropless e-stabilization is enabled with Panasonic lenses but not with third party lenses including Sigma. I believe Panasonic could extend this capability to Photos, to eliminate stabilization related distortion while the camera is moving as the picture is taken. Also, use of the focus ring to control other camera functions is enabled with Panasonic lenses, and as far a I know this is not enabled with third party lenses including Sigma.

 

[GeorgeHudetz]

I'll admit I'm not nearly as concerned about and sensitive to this situation as you are. But I do want to point out some advantages of Panasonic lenses. First, and I know you are not interested in video, cropless e-stabilization is enabled with Panasonic lenses but not with third party lenses including Sigma. I believe Panasonic could extend this capability to Photos, to eliminate stabilization related distortion while the camera is moving as the picture is taken. Also, use of the focus ring to control other camera functions is enabled with Panasonic lenses, and as far a I know this is not enabled with third party lenses including Sigma.

I also dislike the inconsistent control layout on Sigma zooms. Sometimes the zoom ring is by the mount, but on other lenses it’s at the other end, near the hood. Some have aperture rings, some don’t. Etc. I’m a muscle-memory person, so that pushes me more towards Panasonic. But I LOVE the Sigma primes, so I’m leaning towards LUMIX zooms (which also keeps the zoom twist direction consistent, of course) and Sigma primes. Except for the 28-45. Gonna have to make an exception for that one.

 

[pdk42]

I'll admit I'm not nearly as concerned about and sensitive to this situation as you are.

I guess I'm smarting from the fact that Panasonic have effectively put a "do not resuscitate" sign on their lenses. Not only does that hurt my wallet but it's a really bad environmental position. On top of all that, for a lens that's "Pro", "Certified by Leica" etc, I'm really, really disappointed by it failing like this. The lens gets very little use, is babied, and is in pristine condition. I'd expect a "Pro" lens to be able to take a few knocks and still keep going. But the icing on the cake is the terrible customer support from Panasonic. I've tried many routes to complain and to give them an opportunity to "make it right" for me, but I have just met with total indifference. I've probably spent pushing £10k with them, but they don't give a sh1t !

But I do want to point out some advantages of Panasonic lenses. First, and I know you are not interested in video, cropless e-stabilization is enabled with Panasonic lenses but not with third party lenses including Sigma. I believe Panasonic could extend this capability to Photos, to eliminate stabilization related distortion while the camera is moving as the picture is taken.

As you say, I don't do video so none of that is important to me.

Also, use of the focus ring to control other camera functions is enabled with Panasonic lenses, and as far a I know this is not enabled with third party lenses including Sigma.

I've tried to assign the focus ring but I've never found anything that is useful. I control aperture with one of the dials, hybrid zoom is of no interest, ISO is a button press away (and I like it that way since I can't knock it accidentally), and exposure comp is likewise on a dial. What else could I use it for?

 

[CharlesH]

I've tried to assign the focus ring but I've never found anything that is useful. I control aperture with one of the dials, hybrid zoom is of no interest, ISO is a button press away (and I like it that way since I can't knock it accidentally), and exposure comp is likewise on a dial. What else could I use it for?

I set it to Crop Zoom, which as you know is significantly different than Hybrid Zoom. It is just like cropping in post, and really handy.

 

[xaviergut]

my strategy now is to switch to Sigma entirely.

I understand your frustration 100%, Paul.

Since Panasonic Lumix offers up to a 5-year extended warranty in certain regions (like the UK, select EU countries, and Australia) and Sigma Austria offers 6 years warranty (I got that for the Sigma 28-45 mm f/1.8), my strategy is getting rid of the used lenses that I bought, like the Leica 24-70mm f/2.8 or the Lumix 70-200 f/4, and slowly but truly buy new ones with extended warranty.

 

[RichardC]

I've never had to get a Sigma lens repaired. I had one in a Nikon mount which I wanted to put on my Lumix though. "No problem" said Sigma UK - our service department can swap the mount for you.

Having read this thread - I too will be sticking to Sigma moving forward.

 

[pdk42]

I've never had to get a Sigma lens repaired. I had one in a Nikon mount which I wanted to put on my Lumix though. "No problem" said Sigma UK - our service department can swap the mount for you.

Having read this thread - I too will be sticking to Sigma moving forward.

Yeah, I've had good service from Sigma many years ago when I was running Canon kit and had a Sigma lens for that.

 

[pdk42]

I set it to Crop Zoom, which as you know is significantly different than Hybrid Zoom. It is just like cropping in post, and really handy.

Sorry, yes - I meant crop zoom, not hybrid zoom.

 

[Greytop]

I also understand Paul's frustration and would be thinking along similar lines in his shoes.
Panasonic are trying to nurture and develop their serious photography brand with (it has to be said) some very good and competitively priced products, however I think it's fair to say that their apparent approach to ongoing support of their products may come back to bite them in the long term.
No doubt they will have analysed failures and their distribution and have concluded that they can make progress with their current strategy. What they may not have considered though is the impact that bad news has in our current 'connected world' i.e. it tends to travel faster and last longer than good news.
I will be giving Sigma much more serious scrutiny on any future lens purchases.

 

[Jonathan-Mac]

Likewise. I have no intention of buying more Panasonic lenses and for me Sigma is not only usually the cheaper option but also the higher quality one.