M lens with S1RII Lumix

[ALAIN]

Hello,
I just received a 500mm 5.6 Sigma Pro L and I'm about to buy a 1.4x extender and a Lumix S1RII.
I have a range of Leica lenses: 18, 35F2, 50F2.5, 135apo M, and 180apo R.
The S1RII has been out for a relatively short time, but perhaps some users can already share their impressions of using M lenses on this camera body, in photos, but why not also in videos?
Thanks in advance

 

[Babylonia]

In general, M lenses on a Panasonic camera, specially the short focal length lens models, are not suited for it.
As the micro lenses array above pixels of the Panasonic used sensors, is not optimum for using Leica M lenses.
Specially to borders and corners, they suffer by quality by the wrong optical characteristics.

Only real Leica camera's of the L-mount family (S2 - S3...) are optimised for using M-lenses
By having specialised micro lenses above the sensor. And combination of thickness of sensor cover glass.

Much can be found e.g. at testing of lenses at e.g. Fred Miranda community.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/board/55/

Check results of lenses using Sony camera models. That suffer more or less from the same "bad" characteristic.
E.g. that is the reason a brand like "Voigtländer" offer lenses specially with extra correction for models used for Nikon Z, or Sony.
Different for M lenses used at (digital) Leica optimised camera's.

 

[ALAIN]

Thank you for that !
Indeed, I noticed these drifts with an A7R a while ago, but starting at 50mm and not too wide open, the results were interesting.
I recently used a 135mm apo M on an X2D (Mount Fuji showed up and I quickly took what I had with me and, aside from the vignetting, the result is excellent with Hasselblad's unique colorimetry.
I agree with you that the 18 is to be excluded on the Pana, but for longer focal lengths, I would have liked to find real tests on the internet...

 

[DonaldM]

I don’t buy the micro lens myth. That would mean that normal L lenses on an SL camera would have to count in the micro lenses used, which is certainly not the case. It is the thickness of the lens stack that makes the difference. Fred Miranda uses an Sony A7Cr modded by Kolari with a thinner lens stack and he says it is as good as an Leica M11.
I don’t know the thickness of the S1RII, maybe they made it thinner than the S1R?

 

[Andreas]

Bastian Kratzke on the phillipreeve.net site has experimented extensively with M-mount lenses on cameras with different filter stacks. Much of his analysis is summarized here:

Different Filter Stacks and what they mean for us: Sony E | Nikon Z | Leica M | Kolari UT

As you can see, he ignores Lumix and Leica mirrorless cameras, but the results for (newer) Sony E cameras should give you an idea of what to expect on our Lumix cameras. Tests elsewhere show that the Leica L-mount cameras perform much better due to a thinner filter stack. The very early Sony E cameras such as the A7R were worse than the more recent Sony cameras included in his tests, so I wouldn't draw any conclusion from your experiences with the A7R. The Kolari UT mod is interesting. Kolari will do sensor mods on some Lumix cameras. At one point I was thinking of having the Kolari thin-filter mod done on an S5, but in the end I decided against it, at least for now.

By the way, I did manage to find an M-mount wide angle lens that works extremely well on Lumix cameras, but that lens is a special case. 7Artisans released two M-mount versions of their 28mm f/1.4 lens, one designed for Leica rangefinder cameras and one designed for the thicker Sony-E sensor stack. The latter is NOT an E-mount lens. It is an M-mount lens re-formulated for adapting to Sony E and other cameras. This re-formulation works, as the lens has decent corners even wide open. Unfortunately they only did this once, I suspect because it caused a huge amount of confusion. Apparently some Sony owners thought that if they ordered the Sony-E formulation they would get an E-mount lens (as with Voigtlander), and were surprised when they received an M-mount lens. Retailers were also confused. I had a very difficult time getting Adorama to send me the correct version. This lens is now out of production. Right now the best bet for an M-mount wide angle lens (for adapting) may be the Voigtlander 21mm f/3.5. There is very little penalty when using that lens on cameras with thick filter stacks. Sergun80 just started a thread about this lens on the S9. Check out his sample photos--they look great!

 

[Babylonia]

Bastian Kratzke on the phillipreeve.net site has experimented extensively with M-mount lenses on cameras with different filter stacks. Much of his analysis is summarized here:

Different Filter Stacks and what they mean for us: Sony E | Nikon Z | Leica M | Kolari UT

As you can see, he ignores Lumix and Leica mirrorless cameras,

Leica M10 is a mirror-les digital camera - 24 Mpx

Test done by 4 types digital camera's:

• Sony A7III – 24mp, no AA filter
• Nikon Z6 – 24mp, AA filter
• Leica M10 – 24mp, no AA filter
• Sony A7rII UT – 42mp, no AA filter

Checking the results, however the Sony A7rII UT (utilised with a thin cover-glass), is close to the Leica result.
I find the Leica M10 still having the best quality overall.
(Maybe that tiny bit extra quality is done by the other shape of micro lenses in front of the sensor of an M10 ??)
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[Babylonia]

From an earlier comparison between a Leica Summilux 35mm F1.4 FLE lens and in that time a new Voigtländer 35mm F1.5 Nokton
found at YouTube, using an older Leica M262 camera.



Where the results do not differ that much from each other, (except for the price).
About two years ago, I was interested by what the Voigtländer 35mm F1.5 Nokton lens could offer on my Lumix S1R camera.
But had still my reservations by the known issues using the different approach by optical formulas, M-lenses used for "Leica" designed camera's.

So did order the Voigtländer 35mm F1.5 Nokton to come to my camera shop.
And did a "quick & dirty" test in the camera shop itself, by comparison to an even more cheap Sigma 35mm/F2.0 Contemporary lens.

I only tried wide open aperture settings closing down to F 2.8 maximum.
(I want to use these primes specially for their fast openings).

So for Voigtländer 1.5 - 2.0 - 2.8
Aperture setting Sigma 2.0 - 2.8

And tried different focus areas. Focusing in centre, and focusing “mid frame” area. To rule out any field curvature issues.

Unfortunately, the Voigtländer Nokton 35mm f1.5 can “not be used” in combination with a „Panasonic S1R” camera.
And to be expected other Panasonic camera's as well (so comparable "bad" results). Only centre area is acceptable.
Going to mid frame and borders, the image is declining rapidly. - F1.5 can not be used at all !!
Even when the Sigma is used wide open F 2.0, and the Voigtländer closed to F 2.8 (so ~two stops down from wide open F 1.5).
The image quality of the Sigma outperform the Voigtländer by miles to borders and corners.

So I ended up, buying the Sigma lens. Very pity, as these kind of Voigtländer lenses I like very much.
(And a charm as for build mechanical quality, shape and dimensions and fitting as a combination to the Panasonic camera).
But with some common sense this is to be expected.
Otherwise every lens brand should build much more tiny lenses, than what they do now.

 

[Andreas]

Leica M10 is a mirror-les digital camera - 24 Mpx

Leica does NOT classify the the M10 or any other digital rangefinder camera as mirrorless. This classification only applies to Leica cameras with EVFs, including both L-mount cameras and fixed-lens cameras, as you can see here:

Leica Mirrorless Cameras

Why don't they consider digital rangefinder cameras to be mirrorless? Probably because they use mirrored images in the focusing system. Here is snippet from their description of the rangefinder focusing system: "The focusing of the lens is transferred via a ‘control cam’ to a roll in the camera, which then turns a mirror. The images from the viewfinder and rangefinder and the subject form a triangle. Only when the distance ring is set correctly does the rotating mirror bring the images into perfect alignment." Leica likes to be precise. They would not classify a camera as mirrorless if it uses mirrored images in the focusing system. If you disagree with this classification then you should take it up with Leica; I was simply using their nomenclature.

 

[Travis Butler]

Leica does NOT classify the the M10 or any other digital rangefinder camera as mirrorless. This classification only applies to Leica cameras with EVFs, including both L-mount cameras and fixed-lens cameras, as you can see here:

Makes sense as you explain it.

I’d also point out that M-mount lenses were designed for M-mount cameras, and vice-versa; so that test would be the control to see how the lens performs as designed, not how it performs in circumstances it wasn’t designed for.

 

[Babylonia]

Leica does NOT classify the the M10 or any other digital rangefinder camera as mirrorless. This classification only applies to Leica cameras with EVFs, including both L-mount cameras and fixed-lens cameras, as you can see here:

Leica Mirrorless Cameras

Why don't they consider digital rangefinder cameras to be mirrorless? Probably because they use mirrored images in the focusing system. Here is snippet from their description of the rangefinder focusing system: "The focusing of the lens is transferred via a ‘control cam’ to a roll in the camera, which then turns a mirror. .......

How camera brands name or classify their products is primarily a marketing issue IMO. I don't care how they classify it.
Nevertheless, what really matters is the relatively short lens flange distance of the M-system, seen from Leica's history of "analogue photography",
and development of their camera and lens systems "today".

With later digital developments within the Leica camera system, it is likely that Leica itself places much more value
on the foundation upon which it has built its systems over the years.
And older lenses should also be able to be used on their newer digital systems.

The fact that other brands use a different philosophy is due to a different market segment
with different norms and values as a "revenue model".

Apart from it, also each "camera equipment user / client" do have his own preferences and shall build up his camera system accordingly,
by what he "can spend", and possibly depreciate if used for "business" purposes, as just photographic "tools" to be used.
In any case, it is already demonstrated several years ago that the Leica "M-lenses" designed for Leica cameras,
generally are inadequate when used on other brands of digital cameras (by use of an adapter).
Specially the more wide angle focal length lenses of the M-system.

In any case, in general older lenses from the "old days", -with some exceptions- usually no longer meet current standards.
(All my "older" well valued lenses are exchanged for newer better lenses to met today’s quality standards).
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