DxO Photo

[RuleOfThirds]

Today I installed dxo 7 photolab latest version. I switched to Lightroom subscription when I found out that the Capture One version I had did not support my s5ii, and dxo 7 renders the raw extremely ugly… or does it? Maybe I am the culprit.

I have been unable with to define a base profile. My problems is that the default settings give extreme halo’s and compressed shadows to black. At the time I raised this as an issue with them, with examples of how a demo version of c1 handles the S5ii raws, and Lightroom. They saw the issue I had, stated that this is how they like to render, basic hints. I tried several things, only lens corrections, etc. Which helped but never gave satisfactory results. But now when they are at verion 9, I wonder if they got a better product now. I had photolab 6 before 7, and that one was better also with gr3x. Bought 7 at a Black Friday discount at the time and regretted the upgrade later because with 7 the sharpening issues started.

Anyway, seeing the moire in Lightroom, and much much less in the sooc jpegs, the “do I use the right software” question popped in my head. Before Lumix I used C1 Pro for Fuji vesion first, and had upgraded to a full license as well. Had to switch away from c1 due to enshitification (had to buy a new C1 verion for Lumix s5ii support) , and went only with Lightroom because of dxo 7 rendering issues. I only had dxo 7 before s5ii because at the time C1 did not fully support Ricoh GR3x and GR3 at that moment.

- I like the rendering from c1 the best. But the price for subscription is too high, and the perpetual is risky because they make you upgrade when your OS is not supported anymore. So upgrade or stay on MacOS version you had when you bought C1. Pure enshitification…
- Adobe Lightroom has reasonable subscription prices, but rendering is not as good as c1
- dxo: read above.

I like to use raw because of the extra shadow detail and can fix colors etc. non destructive editing. Normally I open the import folder, apply auto settings to my raws, cull the ones I like and do some final touches. Don’t like to edit my pictures extensively, few quick edits ans be done. This does work for me with LR, and did work with C1 as well.

Should I download a demo of dxo 9?, bite the bullet on c1? Stay on LR? My son enrolls in a university which is eligible for 75% discount. So maybe have him buy the ic1 software in 2 months

How does ON1 render? Lens corrections are important to me.

 

[Pete_W]

I've been using DxO PhotoLab since it was Optics Pro some years back and have the current v9. I don't notice halos or compressed blacks, but I don't do much pixel peeping.

PhotoLab v9 introduced AI masking and therefore has heavier requirements on the graphics processor and RAM. The type of graphics card and drivers are important if you are running a Windows computer and many users reported problems with this. My Windows Surface laptop was not able to run v9 at all and it was having other hardware problems so I replaced it with a MacBook Pro M5 with 24GB of RAM and DxO v9 works really well.

 

[Travis Butler]

Should I download a demo of dxo 9?, bite the bullet on c1? Stay on LR? My son enrolls in a university which is eligible for 75% discount. So maybe have him buy the ic1 software in 2 months

How does ON1 render? Lens corrections are important to me.

I use ON1 pretty much exclusively; had C1 a few years ago and at that time it did render a few photos better (typically highly saturated subjects with subtle graduations, like some flowers). Later versions of ON1 have improved, and I had the same problems with C1 needing upgrades - and upgrade prices - as you did. X.x

It does do lens corrections, but I almost never see them because I rarely shoot with native lenses.

I like to use raw because of the extra shadow detail and can fix colors etc. non destructive editing. Normally I open the import folder, apply auto settings to my raws, cull the ones I like and do some final touches. Don’t like to edit my pictures extensively, few quick edits ans be done. This does work for me with LR, and did work with C1 as well.

FWIW, my workflow is somewhat different; I go through culling unwanted first, maybe doing a few quick edits first to see if a pic can be saved, then go back and do more thorough edits on ones I liked. One nice bit about ON1 is that it will copy and paste settings between photos; I almost never batch apply settings because I move from bright to shadow a lot, but copy/paste makes it easy to duplicate settings between similar conditions.

The one ongoing issue I have with ON1 is a lack of polish; it always seems like there’s minor glitches when a new version is released. But I like the denoise module, it has some nice filters (I’ve been using Glow a fair amount the last few weeks, and Dynamic Contrast is great for adding a bit of crispness), and the UI design is much more to my taste than C1.

I’m still running a M2 MacBook Air, and it’s quite usable there; the M2 is going to dad in the next couple of weeks, so I’ll be moving to an M5 Air, and we’ll see how it performs there. One issue is that ON1 does eat 10-12 gig of temporary disk space during a long session, and I’m always running low.

They do have a 30 day demo, and currently running an anniversary sale.

 

[DonaldM]

I tried C1, ON1, DXO-9 and did an attempt to understand Darktable. I have LR/Photoshop. My experience is that all have different starting points with different colours, saturation, demosaicing. I think C1, DXO and Darktable do the best demosaicing (hardly any halos), ON-1 the worst. What I always do is start from a neutral (linear) starting point. That way you circumvent the mostly ugly starting points of the four (Darktable always starts with a linear profile). From there I start working the Raw. See here: https://goodlight.us/linear-profiles.html on the website of Tony Kuyper for how to do it. Also on that link you will find a link to Adobe DNG profile editor to make a linear profile of your camera, you can load that profile in your editor of choice. I use the combination of LR with DXO PureRaw-6 for pictures I want the best development process for, I denoise and demosaic with PureRaw-6 and develop in LR. Success!

 

[GeorgeHudetz]

I’m sticking with Capture One, especially now that it has the new Denoise feature. I do have a little feature envy in terms of the inability to generate 10-bit HDR files like HEIF, but that’s really only useful (to me) for when I want to turn my TV into a picture frame. And I suspect they will eventually get that.

I don’t mind the subscription rate, but then I work in the software industry and know how that financial model helps the underlying health of the comany and keeps people like me employed. And, yes, I know C1 has reduced it’s workforce lately. As with everything else, there are no guarantees - everything changes.

 

[CharlesH]

I use the combination of LR with DXO PureRaw-6 for pictures I want the best development process for, I denoise and demosaic with PureRaw-6 and develop in LR. Success!

I do that as well, Llghtroom with DxO Pure RAW. But with the latest Lightroom Denoise with RAW Details for demosaicing I find myself using DxO Pure RAW less and less.

only useful (to me) for when I want to turn my TV into a picture frame.

I use an HDR monitor and work with Lightroom's HDR mode all the time. It makes such a difference, and shows what our cameras can really do. No need for a TV.

 

[GeorgeHudetz]

I use an HDR monitor and work with Lightroom's HDR mode all the time. It makes such a difference, and shows what our cameras can really do. No need for a TV.

Yeah I’ve done that as well - and I agree it’s amazing - but unless I can share it, or view it in some kind of digital picture frame, it’s not worth that much to me.

 

[RuleOfThirds]

I’m sticking with Capture One, especially now that it has the new Denoise feature. I do have a little feature envy in terms of the inability to generate 10-bit HDR files like HEIF, but that’s really only useful (to me) for when I want to turn my TV into a picture frame. And I suspect they will eventually get that.

I don’t mind the subscription rate, but then I work in the software industry and know how that financial model helps the underlying health of the comany and keeps people like me employed. And, yes, I know C1 has reduced it’s workforce lately. As with everything else, there are no guarantees - everything changes.

I work for allmost all my adult life in the software industry. And I think there should be different rates for people who make money out of the software you sell, and hobbyist. So to speak, like community editions which exists for a lot of enterprise solutions. People who do not use it commercially, don't need or bother the helpdesk, don't need the latest updates and bugfixes asap. So I do mind the pricing strategy for C1. Because I had a license they offer me 20% off, so I'm going to try it, just because I like how it renders. After searching yesterday I found some helpful tips on how to get dxo to render like C1, involving uploading luts, changing the curves, remove all the aggressive sharpening etc. But now I have to value my time to invest to get dxo doing what I hoped it should do by itself, or buy the real thing.

But my annoyance with Lightroom started because of in my eyes excessive moire, and after playing with dxo yesterday evening I saw that dxo renders way less moire then Lightroom does. So it is not just "throw in a low pass filter" which I know it will fix the moire largely and degrade only slightly (depending on situation as well), but there is also software to blame. My s5ii renders the same images almost completely without moire, dxo also much less.

The fun part of all is, there is no right way to render a raw to an image, it is also about a persons taste how he/she likes the image rendered. Besides the moire I can dig the default rendering from Lightroom, and the dxo not so much. My idea of a photographic tool is that there should be a balance between time and output. I don't have the time to work tirelessly on one photo to get it exactly how I think it should be. And then go on to the next. I need the pictures by default rendered like unto 90% of my liking anyway, and do a quick adjustment on some pictures that needs it (in my eyes).

So 1.5 year back I tried for a week to get the default of dxo to work, failed, asked for help at dxo, but never got a solution and moved on. Conclusion, I should have never photographed Amsterdam in a soft box lighting state.

 

[DonaldM]

A very valid argument. There is a ‘right’ way to develop raws, but not for me, being an amateur. I try to develop as clean as possible (exposure to the right, linear files, calibrated monitor), but in the end I develop to my taste, trying to make the picture look like I saw it (or think I saw it).
Even pros are rendering to a target, as you can see in the many Luts available from them.
I might add another argument, besides price, for selecting your development software: the ease of use. I certainly tried to like for example Darktable, as it is probably one of the best and free software available, but it has a very steep learning curve.

 

[xaviergut]

Does anyone use Raw Therapee?

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About RawTherapee is a powerful, cross-platform raw photo processing system, released as Free Software (GPLv3). It is designed for developing raw files from a broad range of digital cameras and targeted at users ranging from enthusiast newcomers who wish to broaden their understanding of how...

rawtherapee.com

I saw once someone using it and it seemed very interesting as an alternative to LR.

I asked Gemini:

The best is that It is 100% free and open-source. No monthly subscriptions, no "paywalled" features, and no ads.
-Brutal development quality: The engine that processes RAW files is among the most powerful out there. Its demosaicing algorithms (how the software reads your camera's sensor) can sometimes extract more sharpness and detail than Lightroom itself.
-Millimetric control: It gives you an almost obsessive level of control over color, sharpening, noise reduction, and exposure. You can tweak advanced curves, work in massive color spaces (like CIECAM02), and adjust scientific image tools.
- Cross-platform: It works flawlessly on Windows, Mac, and Linux.

The Not-So-Good:
-Steep learning curve: Its interface can be intimidating. It is packed with tabs, sliders with highly technical names, and complex options. It is not an intuitive program where you just "click once and make the photo look pretty."
-It is not a catalog organizer: Unlike Adobe Lightroom, RawTherapee doesn't manage collections, recognize faces, or organize your life with complex catalogs. It is essentially a file browser with a massive editor built into it.
-It is not Photoshop: It is meant for developing the photo (adjusting lights, shadows, color, cropping, sharpening). It won't let you clone a person out of the background, swap a sky, or add text.

 

[DonaldM]

It is very comparable to Darktable. Also a steep learning curve. Andy Astbury did some comparisons and has some videos about both.

 

[Babylonia]

I am using an older version of CaptureOne Pro (v23) for my S1R raw files.
As well as DXO Photolab 9 - previous version 8

Both software editors do have their strong algorithms and editing functions, and their lesser points.
Both can be fine tuned in a very deep stage and high quality, as it comes to rendering the outcome of files.
Just only minor differences by certain extremes. E.g. highlight recovery I find better by CaptureOne.
As well the processing of pixel shift High resolution 187 MB files, is done in a better way by CaptureOne.
(DXO do have more micro jaggies).

My problems is that the default settings give extreme halo’s and compressed shadows to black. At the time I raised this as an issue with them, with examples of how a demo version of c1 handles the S5ii raws, and Lightroom.

Well, don't use default settings. You can change base profiles, as well more defined settings as for blacks, shadow tones, contrast, micro contrast.
It is all about fiddling and playing around using the right tools.

Anyway, seeing the moire in Lightroom, and much much less in the sooc jpegs, the “do I use the right software” question popped in my head.

Use the proper edit / filter functions, to fine tune. It can be a huge difference.
-

 

[RuleOfThirds]

Well, don't use default settings. You can change base profiles, as well more defined settings as for blacks, shadow tones, contrast, micro contrast.
It is all about fiddling and playing around using the right tools.

That is exactly what I did until I gave up and bought a Lightroom subscription . Tried dxo 7 again last weekend and removed it from my MacBook anlreafy again. I know the software can do it, even paid for it 2,5 years ago, but I don’t have the time or patience to fiddle with every picture for 20 minutes. So it boils down to choose C1 and pay the premium, or continue to use Lightroom. Because I can’t afford dxo, it is not worth my time. And that probably comes from my lack of understanding the software and how exactly each slider works. It is not my cup of tea, but that doesn’t mean nobody should use it. Everybody chooses their own tools.

For now I choose to stay on Lightroom and deal with the moire because I think that the particular lighting that day, In combination with the old brick houses caused it. Pictures from Amsterdam in a sunny day hardly show any. But still I think it is also has to do with their demosaic algorithm and choices therin. Probably adobe engineers have good reasons too, they know it happens and added a healing brush especially for it. Probably a trade-off between sharpness and artifacts. Hmmm my own conclusions made me think it over. Tomorrow I try to lower the sharpness on affected pictures, that might help.

 

[Babylonia]

Maybe I am the culprit....

...Tried dxo 7 again last weekend and removed it from my MacBook anlreafy again. I know the software can do it, even paid for it 2,5 years ago, but I don’t have the time or patience to fiddle with every picture for 20 minutes. So it boils down to choose C1 and pay the premium, or continue to use Lightroom......

You can make personal presets and process these presets as a base to every follow up image of comparable subjects.
Hundreds, or thousands images if needed.

The problem seems just your own attitude to invest "time" to know and learn the tools of software packages.
Perhaps you are overlooking several basics -not using it- that you are far from satisfied ?
Strange that precisely someone dedicated to the software business holds that attitude?? You have to know better.

The same applies to every software editor you want to use, whether it is Lightroom, Photoshop, Capture One, DXO Photolab, Luminar Neo, RAWTherapee.....
Every package has their own basics, quirks, advantages and disadvantages. You have to learn these tools first and become familiar with it.
That takes "time" in first place.
To gain more solid software experience, or to determine whether one package or another suits a particular working method better over the other.
-

 

[RuleOfThirds]

@Babylonia I bite... I'm not holding that attitude to every software, and my professional work and stuff I do for hobby and fun are completely separated. It's not fair to jump to that conclusion or express it that way in public because you do not know me.

The problem I have is that there is no satisfactory preset available from dxo which does not over sharpen and/or compress the blacks I can apply to all images when returning from vacation. And after investing significant time (several evenings after work time in course of weeks) of trying to find a workable preset I came to the conclusion that one preset does not work for every type of picture. That means that I have to apply a preset to each individual image, or small group of a like images. And that only because dxo does not provide a natural not over processed default. In particular it has to do how it handles (micro)contrast, skin tones and sharpening with halo's. The only way I could get around that was to not use the modules they advertise. Disable sharpening and tedious default sharpening picture by picture.

At the same time in Lightroom or C1 or even other software I can import all pictures from my vacation, apply a nice default preset, does a good auto exposure corrections without giving a HDR look. Then 90% of my work is done in a minute. In one evening I can cull the images, and give the images I really like some extra attention, do some horizon levelling etc.

But if you have hints on or help in how I can get a good base preset that I can apply to a large set of images, like after 3 weeks vacation, with portraits, buildings, museums, landscape, forest, mountains, cities and nightscapes etc. please share them.

 

[Travis Butler]

That is exactly what I did until I gave up and bought a Lightroom subscription .

I refuse to deal with subscription…

Tried dxo 7 again last weekend and removed it from my MacBook anlreafy again. I know the software can do it, even paid for it 2,5 years ago, but I don’t have the time or patience to fiddle with every picture for 20 minutes.

…but this sentiment is spot-on.

Bad UI is an even worse sin than subscription for me; it doesn’t matter what the technical capabilities are if I’m constantly fighting the software to get what I want done. My life is more valuable than that; I want to spend my time and energy on creative choices, not compensating for a software developer that doesn’t do their job right. (I admit that as a programmer myself, I have very little respect for a developer that doesn’t prioritize the user.)

In the end, it’s like I’m always saying about cameras; you do better work if your tools are working with you, not fighting you.

 

[RuleOfThirds]

I refuse to deal with subscription…

I have no problems with the Lightroom subscription. Boils down to a C1 perpetual license every two years. But it includes 1TB of cloud storage, Lightroom and Lightroom CC, and I can view the uploaded pictures easy on an iPad. Don't upload everything, and have local backups so can stop paying any moment.

I admit that as a programmer myself, I have very little respect for a developer that doesn’t prioritize the user.

Totally agree!
Maybe all programmers here should team up, would be a nice bunch and build the ultimate Lumix raw conversion. . No just kidding.

 

[Babylonia]

The problem I have is that there is no satisfactory preset available from dxo which does not over sharpen and/or compress the blacks
I can apply to all images when returning from vacation.

I came to the conclusion that one preset does not work for every type of picture.

As for: "one preset does not work for every type of picture."
Well that’s not that strange at all, really. There is no such a thing that „one setting fits all“.
If that was possible, it was not necessary to implement tools and settings menu to change values of different aspects of images within a RAW-converter.

As it comes to „over sharpening“ just lower the values, of sharpening.
- to much halo’s → lower the radius
- to extensive sharpening → lower the intensity

As within DXO Photolab 9 (no experience using version 7) - the base „default“ settings in my experience even are very low / mild.
So no "over sharpening" at all.

Compressed blacks
First of all, within DXO (9) I take over the used camera “rendering” profile. In my case Lumix S1R.
Also I am not using the "Wide Gamut" working color space, but "Classic/Legacy"
Depending to the camera settings - sRGB or AdobeRGB

To get (far) more detail in shadow tones / blacks.
Color/B&W Rendering. - Shift back "Intensity" (maximum back to 0)

If that still is not enough to highlight the shadows / blacks:
DxO Smart Lighting. "Custom" function - Shift Intensity to higher value.
Avoid maximum value of 100, as it is "over" corrected, and changed the outcome by a kind of posterization

Still you have other tools under the "Selective tone" menu to highlight the shadows and blacks.

Still not used e.g. the "exposure" setting.
Or no corrections done under the Curve menu settings. For highlighting shadows / blacks.
So far enough tools for compensate shadow tones / blacks.

Just make some general corrections for a wide range of pictures, and safe the settings as presets.

 

[Travis Butler]

I have no problems with the Lightroom subscription. Boils down to a C1 perpetual license every two years. But it includes 1TB of cloud storage, Lightroom and Lightroom CC, and I can view the uploaded pictures easy on an iPad. Don't upload everything, and have local backups so can stop paying any moment.

It's not a price issue for me, it's a control issue. If I stop paying the piper, I lose access to all my edits; just the original RAW and a frozen state export. So if I go back six months after canceling the subscription and decide I goofed and want to tweak some things, my only option is to start from scratch with a different program. And wanting to change things when I go back and look at a photo happens a lot for me.

 

[RuleOfThirds]

It's not a price issue for me, it's a control issue. If I stop paying the piper, I lose access to all my edits; just the original RAW and a frozen state export. So if I go back six months after canceling the subscription and decide I goofed and want to tweak some things, my only option is to start from scratch with a different program. And wanting to change things when I go back and look at a photo happens a lot for me.

true, I didn't think about that and very good point. But, there is always a but isn't, my taste develops over time too. And I have for example old nef's from 2006 re-processed in new software, and it came out way better.