proposal for Panasonic Vintage lens series

[robin0112358]

It's clear that there are a large number of options available for L-mount. Panasonic's own lenses are brilliant performers, the primes weather-sealed and of consistent size to facilitate video use. At first glance the collection might seem complete.

But what's missing for me is a set of lenses designed for a) photographers that b) prefer a tactile approach and are c) compact. Perhaps I am spoiled by my Pentax lenses, where even a 50mm f/1.2 is a lot smaller than the existing L-mount lenses. While I enjoy adapting lenses from various systems (I have three mount adapters so far), native lenses would have the obvious advantages of autofocus and stop-down metering.

Who else would appreciate a small selection of compact primes that have aperture rings and direct geared focus? In today's photographic climate, film and vintage gear is ever-more popular. I believe that a Vintage line would appeal to many existing (and new) photographers. Certainly many folk would welcome being able to pack three lenses in the same volume as a single lens currently.

Here is a comparison of a typical Lumix S prime with the Contax Zeiss Planar 50/1.4 and Pentax FA Limited 43/1.9. (I don't have the 50mm Lumix but they are all much the same size.) Once lens hoods are added the comparison is even more extreme. To be fair, the length of the mount adapter should be added to the Contax and Pentax lenses, but this would not necessarily be the case for native lenses.

The Panasonic Vintage line would have appearance and ergonomics similar to the Zeiss Planar (or a classic Leica lens). The lens formulations themselves could be completely contemporary... or indeed could address various historical classics, e.g. the double Gauss design.

• Panasonic - DC-S5
• 1/60 sec
• Center-Weighted Average
• Auto exposure
• 0.3
• ISO 3200

 

[dirk]

Hi Robin,

very good point. Sigma has a solution for it.

Who else would appreciate a small selection of compact primes that have aperture rings

Me. I love this. Look at the Sigma i-series within the contemporary line. They are smaller than the Panasonic or other Sigma options, have always an aperture ring and are with a metal body. The haptics are really great.

Of course they are not as small as a Contax lens (I still have my 50/1.7 MM), but they do have AF. That is making them bigger. And of course because they are designed for higher MP sensors.

I series The Stage is Set. | レンズ | SIGMA | 株式会社シグマ グローバルサイト

Iシリーズは、ミラーレスシステムに新たな価値を提案するフルサイズ対応のレンズシリーズです。撮影システムが小型軽量であることは、ミラーレスの大きなメリットのひとつです。高い光学性能と、一眼レフ機では実現しえなかったコンパクトさとの両立は、新たなシャッターチャンスとの出会いも生み出します。

www.sigma-global.com

I don't have the 50mm Lumix but they are all much the same size.

Panasonic made the F1.8 line with almost the same size and weight by purpose. Because it is an advantage for video with a gimbal. You do not need to adjust when changing lenses.

I am a big fan of the Sigma i-series because like you, I love the "old" haptics. I have the 24/3.5, 35/2.0, 45/2.8, 50/2.0, 65/2.0 and 90/2.8 of the i-series. I love them all

I also have a Pentax 77 and 43 limited with an adapter, but as you said, the adapter adds to weight and size substantially.

There is no free lunch. It is always a compromise. If you want to offer AF and be ready for high MP sensors and have to design for a specific size of the lens mount, there are limitations how small you can go with it. With Nikon Z mount for example, you will never be able to make such small lenses because the Z-mount is a lot bigger than the L-Mount.

Unfortunately, there is not a big enough market for manual focus lenses. That would make each lens even smaller. But maybe with third party lens makers? I have not checked them yet, but there are many out there like (+40) from

• Laowa L lenses
• The 7Artisans lenses L
• Kipon lenses L
• Lensbaby L lenses
• Meyer-Optik Gorlitz Lydith lenses
• TTArtisan L lenses
• The Meike lenses L
• The Nisi lenses L

Maybe someone can tell us his experience with one of those?

 

[CMS]

Hello there,

I would like to see a pancake style lens (with autofocus) like the Sigma i-series. Specifically I would like to see a 28mm. (If anyone has any tips for me, I would be happy to hear them.)
I had a Meike lens for my Micro Four Thirds camera. It was really sharp and not too expensive.

 

[dirk]

I would like to see a pancake style lens (with autofocus) like the Sigma i-series. Specifically I would like to see a 28mm.

Me too. It is very strange that Sigma has not yet offered anything with 28mm as a FFL. My hope is, that they will bring this year 28mm for the i-series.

But it would be interesting to hear opinions on alternatives. Even manual focus with 28mm as long as they are small and light even with an adapter.

 

[xaviergut]

I wish a 40mm f/2 PANCAKE from Sigma or Lumix (Leica is a bit too expensive).

For the moment I bought a Voigtländer 40mm f/2 Ultron for NIKON F mount and one adapter Nikon F lens to L-Mount cameras and it is OK. No AF, but I am starting to enjoy manual focusing.

 

[robin0112358]

The Pentax FA limited 43mm is a beautiful jewel of a lens, tiny with incredible rendering and auto-focus as well. If anyone says that we can't have a small lens with all the trimmings, I point to this item! Even the lens hood and cap are the best I've ever seen.

I'd be happy with something larger as well, so long as the result is half the size and twice as beautiful as the current Lumix S lenses. (And of course other focal lengths will necessarily be larger if maintaining the same IQ.)

I agree that AF is essential... otherwise why not simply adapt existing lenses?

 

[robin0112358]

Me. I love this. Look at the Sigma i-series within the contemporary line. They are smaller than the Panasonic or other Sigma options, have always an aperture ring and are with a metal body. The haptics are really great.

Of course they are not as small as a Contax lens (I still have my 50/1.7 MM), but they do have AF. That is making them bigger. And of course because they are designed for higher MP sensors.

To be honest I didn't know these were available for L-mount! I associate them with the Sigma fp. My bad. Just had a read through the specs. These are really close to what I am proposing, but the lens diagrams are complex contemporary designs. I'd prefer "classic" formulae, those which are still proving their worth today.

For example there's Light Lens Lab, who make the "Speed Panchro", a Cooke copy (7-element double-Gauss design) and the "Eight Element", a copy of the Leitz 35mm Summicron. I imagine if a large firm decided to take this approach to the optics, the results would be smaller and cheaper lenses than the Sigma I-series.

Seems unlikely to happen!

 

[Miker]

You can use the voigtlander M lenses with an m to sl adapter. They make modern and classic lens formulas. Lots of people use these lenses with the Leica sl camera.

 

[inspiredtimothy]

It's clear that there are a large number of options available for L-mount. Panasonic's own lenses are brilliant performers, the primes weather-sealed and of consistent size to facilitate video use. At first glance the collection might seem complete.

But what's missing for me is a set of lenses designed for a) photographers that b) prefer a tactile approach and are c) compact. Perhaps I am spoiled by my Pentax lenses, where even a 50mm f/1.2 is a lot smaller than the existing L-mount lenses. While I enjoy adapting lenses from various systems (I have three mount adapters so far), native lenses would have the obvious advantages of autofocus and stop-down metering.

Who else would appreciate a small selection of compact primes that have aperture rings and direct geared focus? In today's photographic climate, film and vintage gear is ever-more popular. I believe that a Vintage line would appeal to many existing (and new) photographers. Certainly many folk would welcome being able to pack three lenses in the same volume as a single lens currently.

Here is a comparison of a typical Lumix S prime with the Contax Zeiss Planar 50/1.4 and Pentax FA Limited 43/1.9. (I don't have the 50mm Lumix but they are all much the same size.) Once lens hoods are added the comparison is even more extreme. To be fair, the length of the mount adapter should be added to the Contax and Pentax lenses, but this would not necessarily be the case for native lenses.

The Panasonic Vintage line would have appearance and ergonomics similar to the Zeiss Planar (or a classic Leica lens). The lens formulations themselves could be completely contemporary... or indeed could address various historical classics, e.g. the double Gauss design.

View attachment 544

Voigtlander lenses are like what you are describing. Classic in feel, function, and results. They make some very good versions of their lenses for Sony E. Not sure if they will ever decide to branch into L-Mount. Cosina is the parent brand, I'm not sure they would feel the investment is worth the cost currently.

 

[robin0112358]

Yes, Voigtlander are lovely lenses, but I am describing auto-focus, aperture-coupled lenses. I don't think they make those?

 

[Miker]

Oh, it sounded like AF was a nice to have but not a requirement.
Check out the Sigma 45/2.8. It deliberately has less spherical aberration correction, like more vintage lenses, and may be what you are looking for. This might have been a one off lens by sigma to test if there is a market for this sort of lens. People seem to either love it or hate it.
I think there is a limited market for what you are looking for, with an extensive used market of older lenses that can be adapted to L mount, or someone like Voigtlander that can make a series of such lenses in M mount that can be adapted to many other camera systems catering to that need. Most people want highly corrected lenses. It is easier to soften an image in post or blur out backgrounds than the other way around, realizing of course that it isn’t quite the same. I would guess that Ai programs will be able to this more effectively in the future to come to your rescue.

 

[AlanC]

To be honest I didn't know these were available for L-mount! I associate them with the Sigma fp.

The Sigma fp series are L-mount. They're unusual cameras with some very significant limitations but, if you can live with those limitations, the image quality is among the very best. I've had an fp L for a couple of months and have been enjoying it tremendously thanks to its small size and excellent results.

The Sigma DG DN I-series do sound like what you might be looking for: the smaller models (14mm f/4, 24mm f/3.5, 45mm f/2.8) are somewhat less complex in their designs than the others and perhaps have more "character".

 

[robin0112358]

Most people want highly corrected lenses.

That may be true, but also a significant number of people want characterful lenses, especially when there are already an abundance of highly-corrected lenses available. On the Red User forum there's a thread over over 300 (!) pages on adapting Contax Zeiss glass. That speaks to a certain interest!

That's why the price of older lenses have tripled in the last ten years. It seemed to me that combining the vintage aesthetics with the ability to use auto-focus and other niceties had untapped potential. Thanks to this thread I now know of the Sigma lenses, which go part of the way.

I should say that this proposal is not based around my personal needs, so much as an opportunity I see in the market. I have three of Panasonic's corrected lenses, three Zeiss designs, several unsurpassed Pentax lenses, along with Vivitar rebadges of Komine and Kiron lenses, etc. etc. Mirrorless digital offers a wonderful playground!

 

[inspiredtimothy]

Yes, Voigtlander are lovely lenses, but I am describing auto-focus, aperture-coupled lenses. I don't think they make those?

No, I'm not sure that anyone makes those. Most likely to

The Sigma fp series are L-mount. They're unusual cameras with some very significant limitations but, if you can live with those limitations, the image quality is among the very best. I've had an fp L for a couple of months and have been enjoying it tremendously thanks to its small size and excellent results.

The Sigma DG DN I-series do sound like what you might be looking for: the smaller models (14mm f/4, 24mm f/3.5, 45mm f/2.8) are somewhat less complex in their designs than the others and perhaps have more "character".

Their 90mm F2.8 is pretty highly corrected, right?

 

[AlanC]

Their 90mm F2.8 is pretty highly corrected, right?

I only have one of the series, the 24mm f/3.5 so far, so I can only really comment on that one: it has significant vignetting and a certain amount of distortion (less than some of the other lenses, and of an easily correctable type) but these are effectively corrected in software, something that's common across the DG DN I-series.

The LensTip reviews are probably the best detailed source of information: https://www.lenstip.com/619.1-Lens_review-Sigma_C_90_mm_f_2.8_DG_DN.html

Oh, and typo: it should have been 17mm f/4 not 14mm.

 

[inspiredtimothy]

I only have one of the series, the 24mm f/3.5 so far, so I can only really comment on that one: it has significant vignetting and a certain amount of distortion (less than some of the other lenses, and of an easily correctable type) but these are effectively corrected in software, something that's common across the DG DN I-series.

The LensTip reviews are probably the best detailed source of information: https://www.lenstip.com/619.1-Lens_review-Sigma_C_90_mm_f_2.8_DG_DN.html

Oh, and typo: it should have been 17mm f/4 not 14mm.

I really quite like the soft look and rendering of the 45mm. Despite the f2.8 aperture, it looks quite nice for portraits. It seems like the 24mm retains some of this quality as well. I'm not sure why they wanted to make the 90mm rendering so sharp and sterile. There is nothing special about the look of that lens to me.

 

[Jonathan-Mac]

While I'd like to see such lenses I think it's very unlikely that they will ever happen. For a start, there's the superb Sigma I-series which have already been mentioned. They have the best haptics of any autofocus lens I've ever used, better than many old manual film lenses and certainly better than any of the Pentax Limited series, including the 43mm. Build quality is also much better than the Pentax Limiteds, especially the 43mm, which is quite poor in this regard.

Secondly, such lenses would not be significantly cheaper than existing options while being worse optically. I enjoy using old manual lenses but I am aware that modern ones are optically far superior and I can't imagine many people paying money for an inferior lens just because it's smaller.

Thirdly, much of the draw of manual lenses is the smooth manual focus so with that in mind, why would people want an AF version?

 

[robin0112358]

Build quality is also much better than the Pentax Limiteds, especially the 43mm, which is quite poor in this regard.

Apparently I disagree with you on every point, so we will just leave it there! ;-)

But I can't let the comment about the 43 Limited pass. Bad build? Mine is quite old and looks brand new. Functions perfectly. Never heard anyone complain about them falling apart or into disrepair... unlike other vintage lenses.

 

[Jonathan-Mac]

I had a 43mm Limited (made in Japan) for a few years for which I had high hopes but it was very disappointing. I used to own all of the DA Limiteds and the 43mm had relatively sloppy build quality, especially the aperture ring. The Sigma I-series lenses feel much, much better in use than the 43 or even the DA Limiteds.

However if we look at the old manual Pentax lenses (K, M, A series and Takumars) of which I own many, the build quality is universally excellent.

 

[Jayneboo]

Interesting discussion, though I feel we are pretty much spoiled for choice now with L mount and mirrorless as a whole, given the amount of adaptors out there, ok - so I guess for a lot you have to be ok with manual focus. The Sigma i-series pretty much covers everything I need but I have some M mount options, and even though I have the Sigma 35mm f/2 which is an amazing lens I just occasionally leave it at home favouring the CV Ultron, smaller, lighter, and great IQ. Recently for the downright bargain price of around £70 I bought the TT Artisan 25mm f/2 aps-c lens to use on my CL, again if you don't mind manual focus, it's a good little lens, maybe I would describe it as characterful .

Couple of samples... it focusses really close.

• LEICA CAMERA AG - LEICA CL
• N/A
• 1/320 sec
• Pattern
• 0.3
• ISO 400

• LEICA CAMERA AG - LEICA CL
• N/A
• 1/500 sec
• Pattern
• 0.3
• ISO 200

• SIGMA - SIGMA fp L
• 85mm F1.4 DG DN | Art 020
• 85.0 mm
• ƒ/5.6
• 1/500 sec
• Pattern
• Manual exposure
• ISO 6400

• SIGMA - SIGMA fp L
• 85mm F1.4 DG DN | Art 020
• 85.0 mm
• ƒ/5.6
• 1/500 sec
• Pattern
• Manual exposure
• ISO 6400